A Bird's eye view to a Bull's eye

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#91
Dear S'72,

One more method of Netural trade entry is place two SL type entry orders (one short and other long) of the same stock just above the the current price of the stock and keep on changing them in the range - band fashion (something like BB bands) where you have a line above and a line below the price line. At some big price action (either up or down) your one order is triggered and that trend is likely to continue, so hold on. Additionally, once your position is initiated in this fashion of entry, you can then put a SL to this position with twice the quantity, that means that if your SL is hit, than you are out from the original position quantity and now have a reverse position with the original quantity.

e.g. For Stock A, if the stock has fallen from Rs. 110 to current price is Rs. 100 and you have a bullish view now 'as per your system' (especially a trend reversal thinking), you can put a buy SL order of Rs. 102 (1000 qty) and a sell SL order of Rs. 98. (1000 qty)

Now if the stock rises to 102, you will automatically enter a long position at 102 for 1000 qty, then in such a case, since you have created a directional position, you can set a SL at 99 with 2000 quantity.. so incase if the the SL is hit you are now short @ 99 with 1000 quantity. And with this directional position you can then again set a new SL....and so on till the time the chart, your system or price action suggest a strong and most certain direction of the stock till the end of your holding period.

Hope this helps, there are a few more ways to do such things till you have developed a good successful system. And even after you have a robust trading method / system many times, you feel that such entry is beneficial, I still do it many times, even after so many years in trading. This way the profits may be less, but almost certainly there won't be losses. You will need to practice this, which isn't that difficult. But you will need patience with this method. If can control your losses you are still in the game and milking.

Still if there is some disconnect, would like to throw more light / give more live examples, pls PM me if required, and we will take it off line.

Regards,

..ok...now I would close this ice breaker discussion on trade entry here and continue with the subject from next post...on second thoughts I feel that such bit - off track topics may make the flow vibrant and not monotonous or monologue. Also please excuse for wrong spellings, wrong grammer (though I am good at the language) but many times thoughts run faster than the fingers on the keypad.

I normally try to trade the flow(that saint had once discussed in th forum) Many times specially nowadays the market rises or falls a little and then goes into the sideways range for long and then going in either direction. the move if opposit to my original position leads to my stop losses being hit and of course since the positions are normal SAR I do get some amount of movement in the opposite too. But the SAR cant be too close else they ll get trigerred in the range bound movement too. And wider sar means squandering away sizeable amounts on profits already made.

So I was thinking in the same lines as u mentioned. ie exit the position at best possible price in case of a sideways movement and have two SL orders on either side of the range to take care of the movement on either side. That ways if the break out was on the same direction as my initial position, i will be losing some profit as the new entry has to be a little away from the exit, but in an opposite side move i atleast save the amount i wud lose between my exit point and SAR. I dont know if thats a right thing but trying out neverthless...
 

oilman5

Well-Known Member
#92
Ok...now the motive to start with these trades...

Like any trader, you have a view on the UL, bearish, bullish, sideways and in stock you can make money either in bullish or bearish movements (sideways is for Options...so we will not talk about it here).

So there are only two views to profit, bullish or bearish (we are not talking about the speed of change). It is just a plain view of the UL reaching a particular price up in case of bullish view and a particular price down in case of bearish view and by a 'specific time'. For every system of ours, this is important that the view has to be till a specific time, either 10 mins, 30 mins, till EOD, for 3 days, a week, a month etc.

But since we are no God, can we exactly define the end of the 'specific time' or can we define that our entry is just the right time and move will happen exactly after we have taken a position. Am I talking about catching the bottom or tops to take the best entry position - which by inate human desire we all want, yes...to a large extent, but then we need a confirmation too that we have indeed caught the best entry position and that too WITHOUT incurring loss..so the question is how do we do it, eating the cake and keeping it too...:)

When we arrive at a decision point (and say our view is bullish) we generally enter long, we generally enter at a point where the bears have just climaxed but are the bulls ready to charge....generally no. Though ideally we should have entered after a pause to let the climaxed bears, breathe easy and cool down and just as the bulls show signs of charging. But most of the traders are not so paitent to do so, and since we always want to be in the market, we take long position just when the bears have climaxed and then hold on our position till the bulls start charging....this waiting period of waiting and hoping that our position will flourish is the culprit and lot of things keep running in our minds during this time. We consider the time invested is too long and hence even when there is small up move, we tend to exit as we are restless, since we were kept waiting for so long for the bulls to charge. Alternatively if the bears decide to march further down south, there are high chances that the position is held on, since you are married to the position as you have been holding it for so long long time and the long holding period does not allow you to exit even when you know that the movement is not in your desired direction.

So though the best thing is to enter just when the bulls are ready to charge (in case of bullish view) or just when bears are ready to attack (in case of bearish view), we can succumb to our urge to enter the market and 'Get into the Action' and 'Get the first hand feel' by ENTERING NEUTRAL POSITIONS. Yes ENTER NEUTRAL.

So in the above example in both the position I have initiated the trades in Neutral Gear that means that the ignition of my car is ON and I am standby in a Netural Gear.

I had a view, in both the trades I mentioned - and that was bearish, but since I did not for sure knew when that would likely be triggered, I entered Neutral - so I am in the market and already in the action..till the time the market were moving in a limited range, my setups were not in much loss nor in much profit. As the time passed, and your conviction as per your system, charts and price action suggest that the desired movement has started, which can be anytime from the initiation time to the intermidiate time, I CLOSE THE LOSS MAKING POSITION from the NEUTRAL POSTION that I had at initiation. And than now I have a directional position, as per the trend in the market.

So out of the two sides, say for example, I do not spend my time and energy to keep analysing, which side is right and then move to side, BUT I AM IN THERE sitting on the fence all the times with one leg on each side, and swings my legs merrying in the air. The moment one side shows action, I pull out my leg from the other side, it is very fast and very easy.

How does this help...

- It meets the basic trader's instict of being in the market all the times (and the Netural position help you to be in the market, but without bearing any loss as you are market Neutral)
- As you exit your loss making position because of a movement in your anticipation, you develop habit of exiting trades in early loss - another requirement to be a successful trader.
- It helps to hold your positions for long time, since after an move in your direction, if there is a pause, you can reinitiate the opposite position and then then again get back to the market neutral position, keeping the original position in profit.
- And most importantly when you are having a market Netural position, and the movement subsequently happens in the OPPOSITE direction of your anticipation, you can either exit the entire NEUTRAL position or exit your loss making position (the position which you originally wanted to hold and profit) and continue with you NOW profit making position (originally which you did not anticipate to be in profit). So now you got it how to make your loss making position run into profits. This is despite the movement happening in the opposited direction to your anticipation.

There are a few more ways do this, but won't be stating them here...so other time.....

Hope you have understood what I wanted to convey, the Options trade was just an example, hence in those two trades, I have earned, but the original set up was exited midway and loss making trades where shun out, holding just the directional profit making position and profiting from the momemtum of the fall (in this case) or in some other cases would be a bull run.

To make things simpler for stock traders, it is like, If I am bullish on stock 'A', I go long stock 'A' and at the same time I go short say, stock 'B' (assuming they have be same Beta and are strongly correlated). And then I wait, from my initiation to the intermidate time (almost till half time of my original holding period) and just when the bull run starts during this period and I can see it on charts and price, I cover stock B and let stock A run in the money. And, if the bulls fail to take off till my holding period, i get out of both the stock. And conversley, if bears decide to take control in the interim, I either exit both the positions or cover the long stock A and continue holding short stock B.

Hope this help to convey my motive. Practise it, practise it, you can use it with your existing decision making system. And convert you loss making trades in to winners.

Regards,
..............................................................................

'you have a view on the UL, bearish, bullish, sideways and in stock you can make money either in bullish or bearish movements (sideways is for Options...so we will not talk about it here.'................u have a view on market.Now plan to make profit from that view.Target component and TIME to reach it.we r no GOD, so element or error in decision making and uncertainity factor from market r to be considered,
Desire -confirmation-neutrality in mind yet protectionism........all 4 r syncrinised.This is really tough but actual trade decision is.
In trade 3 expected flow .........in direction , neutral no move within expected time ..............third opposite to ur expectation............its the elemination of 3rd factor...........so also big loss potential is eleminated.........that is nicely explained by ur writing.Its neutrality,its neutrality............key theme..........so third event may not occur,yes real low risk trading principle correctly explained by going in detail as per KISS.
...........
'And most importantly when you are having a market Netural position, and the movement subsequently happens in the OPPOSITE direction of your anticipation, you can either exit the entire NEUTRAL position or exit your loss making position (the position which you originally wanted to hold and profit) and continue with you NOW profit making position (originally which you did not anticipate to be in profit). So now you got it how to make your loss making position run into profits. This is despite the movement happening in the opposited direction to your anticipation.'..........the real classic ........u can earn even u r wrong ,provided u have maturity.
...................................................
Thats why i consider the best posting in traderji.
 

tnsn2345

Well-Known Member
#93
What is the basic and important skill of a trader?

a) Decision making
b) Discipline
c) Asset allocation
d) All of the above
e) None of the above

Ok, I would say e) None of the above (see I am asking the 'basic' skill).

So what is the basic skill, it is something that we have learnt primary school -Math - yes elementray and basic math. Not even the highschool stuff or algerbra, geometry, a simple arithmatic.

But this arithmatic has to be on the finger tips and so good that you should be able to calculate (addition, division, multiplication and percentile functions) without a calculator (yes rough estimation will do).

We all focus on trading activity and the decision making process, trading method, system, discipline, the art and the science of trading, but most of the traders miss out on simple calculations of numbers i.e. how much is being allocated, what is the risk in a trade (for some, how much is the reward again quantifiable), how the loss would affect that particular trading portfolio and the overall portfolio etc etc..

The best way to get out of this complication and to have a common standard (as mentioned in the earlier post that every day our effort should be create a stable and familiar trading arena (even though there will be different movements every day) so that we can stick to our plan. (will write on this later) Ok coming back to the subject, what is the standard of computation.

IT IS 100. A HUNDRED. This is the measure of everything, absoultely everything. Once everything is related to 100, managing large volumes of trades also becomes difficult. What is 100. It is nothing but defining EVERYTHING in PERCENTAGE TERMS. EVERYTHING !!!!

So if my wealth is 50 L and I decide on 5 TF trading portfolios and the allocations are as say, (Allocations are basis the risk, volatility, expected retruns, leverage - non leverage and are derived with objective of meeting different financial goals)

P1 : 20 L
P2 : 15 L
P3 : 10 L
P4 : 3 L
P5 : 2 L

Total : 50 L

Now if I take portfolio P5 of 2 L, I calculate everything taking 2 L as 100. So if this is my intraday portfolio, and say, I am ok with a risking 10 k on a trade and 30k per day on his portfolio (the risk amount depends on the 'expected' volatility on the given trade or given day). Then the calculation is done as 5% risk per trade and 15% risk per day. All the calculation are done on % basis abosuletley. And this is done for all TF allocations (different risk) but the measure is in terms of %.

All this culminates in the total portfolio, which can be then diffience on weighted terms as per risk taken (again in % terms) on the total portfolio and the returns also need to be measured in % terms for invidivual as well as total portfolio.

Advantages...it takes makes calcuation faster and easier to grasp the activity on the ground instanty, helping to take faster decisions. It takes away the emotinality when you trade big trades.

....
 
#94
What is the basic and important skill of a trader?

a) Decision making
b) Discipline
c) Asset allocation
d) All of the above
e) None of the above

Ok, I would say e) None of the above (see I am asking the 'basic' skill).

So what is the basic skill, it is something that we have learnt primary school -Math - yes elementray and basic math. Not even the highschool stuff or algerbra, geometry, a simple arithmatic.

But this arithmatic has to be on the finger tips and so good that you should be able to calculate (addition, division, multiplication and percentile functions) without a calculator (yes rough estimation will do).

We all focus on trading activity and the decision making process, trading method, system, discipline, the art and the science of trading, but most of the traders miss out on simple calculations of numbers i.e. how much is being allocated, what is the risk in a trade (for some, how much is the reward again quantifiable), how the loss would affect that particular trading portfolio and the overall portfolio etc etc..

The best way to get out of this complication and to have a common standard (as mentioned in the earlier post that every day our effort should be create a stable and familiar trading arena (even though there will be different movements every day) so that we can stick to our plan. (will write on this later) Ok coming back to the subject, what is the standard of computation.

IT IS 100. A HUNDRED. This is the measure of everything, absoultely everything. Once everything is related to 100, managing large volumes of trades also becomes difficult. What is 100. It is nothing but defining EVERYTHING in PERCENTAGE TERMS. EVERYTHING !!!!

So if my wealth is 50 L and I decide on 5 TF trading portfolios and the allocations are as say, (Allocations are basis the risk, volatility, expected retruns, leverage - non leverage and are derived with objective of meeting different financial goals)

P1 : 20 L
P2 : 15 L
P3 : 10 L
P4 : 3 L
P5 : 2 L

Total : 50 L

Now if I take portfolio P5 of 2 L, I calculate everything taking 2 L as 100. So if this is my intraday portfolio, and say, I am ok with a risking 10 k on a trade and 30k per day on his portfolio (the risk amount depends on the 'expected' volatility on the given trade or given day). Then the calculation is done as 5% risk per trade and 15% risk per day. All the calculation are done on % basis abosuletley. And this is done for all TF allocations (different risk) but the measure is in terms of %.

All this culminates in the total portfolio, which can be then diffience on weighted terms as per risk taken (again in % terms) on the total portfolio and the returns also need to be measured in % terms for invidivual as well as total portfolio.

Advantages...it takes makes calcuation faster and easier to grasp the activity on the ground instanty, helping to take faster decisions. It takes away the emotinality when you trade big trades.

....
Dear tnsn,

Few of my observations :

1) I find the percentages mentioned 5% per trade and 15% per day too high..... in daytradig the frequency of trades being higher than swing trading anything above 1.5 % on a trade and 4 -5 % for the day may be bit on the higher side.

2) I feel the percentage of trading capital risked on a trade should be same for all trades...and the quantity traded should vary depending on volatilty and distance between your entry and stoploss points . More volatility...further away will be your stops....smaller will be your quantities traded and vice versa...

Thanks,

Smart_trade
 

jagankris

Well-Known Member
#95
Dear tnsn,

Few of my observations :

1) I find the percentages mentioned 5% per trade and 15% per day too high..... in daytradig the frequency of trades being higher than swing trading anything above 1.5 % on a trade and 4 -5 % for the day may be bit on the higher side.

2) I feel the percentage of trading capital risked on a trade should be same for all trades...and the quantity traded should vary depending on volatilty and distance between your entry and stoploss points . More volatility...further away will be your stops....smaller will be your quantities traded and vice versa...

Thanks,

Smart_trade
Dear ST,

I think TNSN is referring to stop loss from an options trading perspective.
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
#98
Dan,

My guess is ST has meant volatility expectation from the sense of ATR and I guess options implied volatility is different.

I could be wrong.Pls give us a detailed explanation.

TIA.
Hi JK

Thanks for your input. I guess it is finally tnsn which has to clarify the confusion, as he talks here about his way of stop losses which seem to fix to his trading style.

I personally second ST style and that even for option trading.

DanPickUp

( Sorry : TB is gone for today. Will do it as soon as it is reloaded )
 

tnsn2345

Well-Known Member
#99
Dear tnsn,

Few of my observations :

1) I find the percentages mentioned 5% per trade and 15% per day too high..... in daytradig the frequency of trades being higher than swing trading anything above 1.5 % on a trade and 4 -5 % for the day may be bit on the higher side.

2) I feel the percentage of trading capital risked on a trade should be same for all trades...and the quantity traded should vary depending on volatilty and distance between your entry and stoploss points . More volatility...further away will be your stops....smaller will be your quantities traded and vice versa...

Thanks,

Smart_trade
Dear friends,

The point raised are quite obvious in terms of risk taken per trade in intraday trading, but there are a few reasoning for this:

1) Look at the total allocation to the intraday trade to the total portfolio (2 L out of 50 L i.e. 4%)
2) Why is this allocation made for short TF trades ? - With 'expectation' of extra ordinary returns,
3) Why 'extra ordinay returns? - So it can have meaningful effect on the entire portfolio.
4) What is the cost of 'extra ordinary returns'? - More 'Risk'.
5) Hence selection of more risker instruments, primarily (as Jagan mentioned) Options.
6) How many trades are optimum for intraday trades? - I may sometimes takes as low as 2 trades in a day. Hence, I mean that it is not necessary that for intraday traders to keep on trading with 10 - 15 - 20 trades daily, it can be done with a good 5 - 6 trades also (which could be a combination of 5 m, 15 m, or 30 m TFs)


Coming to point 2) of trading different quantities of trading capital, one thing what you have suggest can be done, also, alternatively the other way to do by changing the trading TFs along with volatility. The risk per trade (in the above example of 5% etc) again is not static, it depends on the expected volatility on that given day and this number can easily vary anywhere from 2% to even double digits. I define this number at the EOD of the previous day for next day's trades. In most cases this number does not change in the day. But on some unexpected occasions, during 'the Interval Session' (will write on this later if appropriate then) this number can be revised either upwards or downward for the remaining period of the day.

The idea here is to be rigid with your maths, your definition of numbers (risk) amount allocations, volume per trade, etc, this has to be static, not tweaking around during the trading time (and for all time frames). And yes during the mid review (aka Interval Session) these can be revisited, if necessary.

Regards,
 

tnsn2345

Well-Known Member
Why should there be any different to stocks or futures as he also mentioned the volatility expectation ?
Yes, there won't be difference in the risk taken if I am trading intrady either Options, Futures or stocks (margin trading - leveraged). As long as the instruments are highly leveraged the risk will be more and hence the Risk per trade / day will be similar. Just for Options, since there is element of IV, and faster decaying (higher Theta / Price) as we go in the month, the risk increases.

I can still trade (intraday) in Futures or leveraged stocks but Options give me more options to setup trades on the basis of IV and milkling Theta (by writing) and also gaining from directional movement of the UL.

Regards,
 
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