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Dear AW10,

Its regarding Expectancy as referred by Van Tharp.

I am backtesting a strategy based on the concept.

Expectancy is positive and position sizing is maintained at constant 2% risk of equity. The system generates 40:60 wins and losses. Overall return is positive at R Multiples.

Inspite of all these, the equity curve is dropping continuously though the a/c is not blown out.

Am I missing something serious? Your guidance in this regard is highly appreciated.
Dear Veluri,

From what you have described above I find that the ratio of average amount of money made on winning trades to average amount of money lost on loosing trades appears to be less than 1.5 :1. This is rather small considering the hit rate of 40:60.

Have you considered the brokerage,slippage,STT and other charges in your calculation of expectancy ? If not that might adversely affect the equity curve particilarly with low expectancy systems.

Hope you will be able to improve your system.

Best wishes,

Smart_trade
 

SwingKing

Well-Known Member
Dear AW10,

Its regarding Expectancy as referred by Van Tharp.

I am backtesting a strategy based on the concept.

Expectancy is positive and position sizing is maintained at constant 2% risk of equity. The system generates 40:60 wins and losses. Overall return is positive at R Multiples.

Inspite of all these, the equity curve is dropping continuously though the a/c is not blown out.

Am I missing something serious? Your guidance in this regard is highly appreciated.
Veluri,

Have you calculated the ratio of the expectancy and the standard deviation of the R-multiple distribution that your system produces. I will sincerely ask you to do so. If the ratio is anything less than 0.25, then money making with the system will continue to become difficult despite the system having a positive expectancy. Moreover as Smart_Trade mentioned, you need to account for Commissions etc.

Hope this helps.

Tc
 

Placebo

Well-Known Member
Expectancy is positive and position sizing is maintained at constant 2% risk of equity. The system generates 40:60 wins and losses. Overall return is positive at R Multiples.

Inspite of all these, the equity curve is dropping continuously though the a/c is not blown out.

Am I missing something serious? Your guidance in this regard is highly appreciated.
Forget all the multiples for the time being. From what i have grasped something is wrong at the grass root level. Either the entry is near the exhaustion of trend or the exit is not properly defined or maybe requires more testing. Also if you invert the current strategy it would truncate to a 60:40 winning/losing ratio so there is definitely something which has been overlooked.

Hope This Helps

Cheers And Happy Trading
 
I did it my way - frank

Want to share good article read recently from engineering-returns by expert trader Frank Hassler in his blog ............:thumb:

I DID IT MY WAY
This post is going to be very different from what I usually post. I want to write about my experience on becoming a system designer and systematic trader. Why now? Im about to pass 4.000h of system development and trading. Yes, Im maintaining a time log. However, its been an amazing journey from a personal growth point of view as well as emotional perspective. It feels like riding in a gigantic roller coaster.

Let me give you some background about investment history. Im a burned child of the DOT-COM times. In the mid 90s I started to invest (yes, invest) without knowing what I was doing. Then things (money) accelerated during DOT-COM phase, and again I did not know what I was doing. After burning my hands (and money) I stayed in the market and regained a lot until 2008, the point where I decided to withdraw from the markets and my past investment style. What made me change my way: actually a book from Jim Cramer. Jims first book got me really started. I read more and more books. Eventually i figured a thing called Technical Analysis.

During that phase i also run into Van Tharps books (a trading coach focused on trading psychology) and visited two of his workshops. One of his workshops turned me into a systematic trader. During his workshop we were playing a game about position sizing. One knew the expectancy of a system and had to set the position size accordingly. To make a long story short, I recognized it will be emotionally easier for me to trade when I know the ins and outs (expectancy) of my strategy rather than following the technical analysis path. Dont get me wrong, technical analysis might work for some people, but not for me! Why not for me? In my opinion technical analysis is too ambiguous. Thats been an important light bulb moment, the fire got started and never went off. I decided to focus on systematic (quantitative) trading, despite my less than optimal background. Ive been a real rookie as my background is in business administration and marketing.

Let me elaborate on some of the key learnings during MY adventure. Why am I sharing those with you? I do hope you can avoid or bypass some of my challenges by reading this post.

Have a master plan! What are the big points you want to achieve over the next year. All activities should support the achievement of your big points. By big points I mean for example: By 2011 I want to have two trading systems with a distinct investment style. I expect each of them to return XY% per year.. I know this isnt rocket science, though its so easy getting lost in narrow focused system optimization.
Make it a process! Focus on getting better day in day out, eventually results will show up. Build a methodology how you want to develop a system. In the past I often heard, we dont have time for processes; we have to create products now. Know what you do before you start and dont describe what you did after you have finished. I often fall into the trap (especially in the first year) to JUST test an idea and hours passed away without noticing. Follow your master plan!
Stay focused! There are only a very few different trading systems (styles) out there. In the beginning I made the mistake having up to 10 different systems (all focused on equities). In reality its been one system with different setups. I thought having a swing trading system on the German DAX is a different thing than having a swing trading system on the SPY. Of course it isnt! But I had to learn this the hard way. Furthermore I spent way too much time on trying to develop an intraday system. I believe creating good intraday systems is more difficult than creating solid EOD systems. Hindsight I should have focused on EOD systems right from the beginning.
Dont read too many books! (before you start). I should have started earlier by getting my hands dirty in system development. In my opinion there is too much money made in selling redundant trading books. System developers can learn as they test (to some extend). Of course education is important, but dont underestimate the power of hands-on experience.
There is no way of getting rich quickly! Only one of getting poor. Things are going to take time, at least for me. Ive invested about 4000 hours of system development (not counting the endless hours of reading books). Im still not there, I feel like Im an intermediate. I expect to need 10.000h in order to reach expert level ground. There is a great book about this topic (non trading related), its called Outliers: The story of success. The essence of the book: talent isnt born, its a process and takes time. At least 10.000 hours.
A system is more than an entry! Do not underestimate the power of money management. Invest time in researching about when is the right time to increase or decrease your position size. Eventually this is going to set you apart from the crowd.
Trading has to be painful (sometimes)! Trust your system. Often times I questioned the entries of my system, because its been to painful to execute the trade (into deeply oversold setups) as everybody was talking about the world coming to an end (finally). Of course that would have been the perfect time to make BIG money.
Dont wait until its perfect! Once you have a solid first version of your system begin trading. Start with small position size. This way you learn how to execute the system. This is something thats totally overlooked in my opinion. You will figure out if you can emotionally execute the trade, have the time or if its at all possible to execute the trade as your back tested result suggested. Furthermore you will run into some issues and make mistakes. Thats good. Its better to make them early (while you maintain a small position size). Believe me; I made every possible mistake one can make during the course of such a journey. Im not proud of these mistakes, but at least Im trying to not make them a second time.
Be honest with yourself! There is only one person in the world you cant lie to. Dont look for the shortcut, there isnt one. Focus on the concept and dont spend endless hours on over optimizing results. I know its tempting.
Find a mentor! Get support early in the process. Have somebody that has experience in the field of system design and trading. He or she can guide you without giving you the shortcuts. I believe this has been the single most important factor in improving my system design and trading. Working with this expert required me to be more explicit in my thinking and system design.
The list isnt complete yet. Im expecting to make more mistakes and hopefully learn from those.

As you can see: I did it my way. Certainly not the perfect way, but Im still healthy and alive. I know Ive to continue learn and excel in order to succeed AND pass the 10.000 hours.

Frank -
:)
 
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Excellent Post Frank,
Couple of observations:

1. A beginner has to gather knowledge on what markets are about and in this respect certain amount of study is required before embarking on any system development.
You are right, over reading can be counterproductive.

2. At the outset it is crucial to remember that markets are made up of people, human beings and no indicators or systems can address all the nuances of human behaviour.

3. The fundamental law governing all markets, in any time frame, (intraday(1min-240min) or EOD(weekly, monthly, yearly) is Supply and Demand. Many think it is perceived value via fundamental analysis and news reports, world events etc but all these perceptions have to eventually materialise on a chart as price and investors/traders have to enter the market with either buy or sell orders which in turn creates the Buying and Selling pressure ie. Supply and Demand.

4. Hence I would suggest that a beginner would do well to study Wyckoff, It is 100yrs old but the principles outlined therein will remain valid in any decade. The teachings have remained out of public domain for a very long time. Only in the past 10 or so years the work has come to light and gained prominence.

5. Wyckoff's work provides insight into the workings of the market, the market manipulation etc and how price action can be read through range ie. price movement and activity ie. Volume. Volume is the Effort and Price is the Result.
Alongside it would also be prudent to undertake a systematic study of Taylor
http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-Trading-Technique-George-D/dp/0934380244
It is a gem, however it is a very hard read, Taylor was foremost a trader and writer second. Most find it so difficult to grasp that they walk away casting his work as antiquated but have patience and persistence and the light will come on.

6. Once this background is in place, one can set about constructing strategies and tactics to create an edge to take advantage of the opportunities that the market provides. Then all the steps you outline come into play.

Once again an excellent post.
 
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DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
Hi

As we work day for day with computers and use a browser, we have to protect our private data and the way we use this browsers. It is not in our intention ( at least in mine ), that other ones we even do not know, control or see or collect informations about what I do in different places. I am clear, that informations are collected every where, but what I speak about here, goes far more behind that.

Some thing for your safety and to protect private data in your Firefox browser. There was a guy, which created an ever cookie.

What is an ever cookie ?

“Ever cookie is a javascript API available that produces extremely persistent cookies in a browser. Its goal is to identify a client even after they’ve removed standard cookies, Flash cookies (Local Shared Objects or LSOs), and others.

Ever cookie accomplishes this by storing the cookie data in several types of storage mechanisms that are available on the local browser. Additionally, if ever cookie has found the user has removed any of the types of cookies in question, it recreates them using each mechanism available.” – described by Samy.

By the way, Samy is the guy which created that shi**

When people are looking around how this cookie can be removed from their browsers, Samy is trying to improve it by adding new more techniques. Currently during it’s cookie creation, it tries to store in different places in your browser using 13 mechanisms so that just clearing browser’s cookie doesn’t remove ever cookie. It’s so powerful that many smart users will not be able to clear it even, general users are far behind. HTML5′s session storage, local storage, global storage, and database storage via SQLite makes it more persistent. Already some security researchers have identified how this can be removed in Safari, Chrome but not yet from Firefox. The technique I am going to describe works in firefox 3.6 with Samy’s current version.

So, it is after us to do some little changes in our browser ( as there is no app for it ), to kick that stuff out of our browser.

Here a link, which shows how to do for the Firefox browser :

http://www.monirulislam.com/general...news/how-to-remove-evercookie-from-firefox-3/

DanPickUp
 
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gauharjk

Well-Known Member
Today, I sold my holdings too early. I was afraid the market would crash. I had bought 1 lot OCT futures Cummins India @ 747 (500) a few days ago. Sold it today @ 734. It touched a high of 739. I was afraid it might fall to 720 levels like it had done on 18th and 19th October.

Now that Coal India IPO is behind us, and ample liquidity is available again, the market should stabilize a bit.
 

veluri1967

Well-Known Member
A doubt on Position Sizing and Risk Management.

As per Dr.Elder Alaxander, we should risk a maximum of 2 % on any one trade and 6% maximum in a single month.

Now suppose I would like to trade the following scrips on a capital of Rs.1 lac.

xyz cmp 200 stoploss 190
abc cmp 1000 stoploss 900
123 cmp 3000 stoploss 2500

1. Since risk on xyz Rs.10 per share and 2% of Rs.1 lac is 2000, my position size should be 200. Taking into consideration slippage and brokerage, let us say position size is 150. So, my investment in this scrip is Rs.30000/-

2. Since risk on abc is Rs.100 per share and 2% of Rs.l lac is 2000, my position size should be 20. After slippage and brokerage, position size is around 15. My investment in this scrip is Rs.15,000/-.

3. Since risk on 123 is Rs.500 per share and 2% of Rs.lac is 2000, my position size should be 4. After slippage and brokerage, it should be around 3. My investment in this scrip is Rs.9000/-.

Total investment in 3 scrips comes to 30000+15000+9000 = Rs.54,000/-.

Fine.

But, out of Rs.1 lac I am able to deploy only Rs.54,000/- and remaining Rs.46000/- is not invested.

Does not it result in less capital untilisation thereby causing less return on whole capital of Rs.1 lac?

How to use complete capital of Rs.1 lac adhering the rules of position sizing and risk management of 2% and 6% of Dr.Alexander?

Guidance is appreciated.
 

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