General Trading Chat

[PS Trader]

Who gives NF at Rs. 2000 per lot ?? I don't remember any such advertisements/ posts here in TJ.

here they are
asthatrade.com/index.php

 

[niftytaurus]

My take on algo trading is as under :

1) Many think that algo trading is always profitable...it is not so, it can give quick losses too.

2) A complex method is difficult to programme in algo trading. Simple things like ORB,MA crossing etc can be easily programmed but one wonders whether those are profitable.

3) If we can incorporate different actions for trends and different action for sideways markets then algo trading could be great but that putting in algo will be difficult.

4) Algo trading has advantage of executing the trades without any greed or fear.

5) Getting a 100 % mechanical method which has edge in all types of markets is a difficult job.

A trader friend is trying the following as an alternative to automated trading :

1) He has a well defined method with clearly defined stops and profit taking levels.

2) He is experimenting by employing 10th pass girls/boys ( he says preferably physically handicapped) and their job is to execute trades...they are not responsible for the trade outcome but if the trade is missed, they are answerable. Hadicapped because this work does not involve travelling etc and a handicap person can easily do the work.This is a desk job. It provides employment to physically handicapped.He will go only in the evening to see what is todays loss/profit....

This experiment is still at initial stages...I am eager to see what is the outcome of this experiment.

Smart_trade

Hi
Thanks ST da for your views & advice.i agree with u on all points.
but i was thinking that if somebody wants to trade with big capital..what are the options? Mostly good traders trade discreationary method..All price action method..in intraday, in a discreationary method,its very difficult to trade more than 1-2 scrips..& we cant take very huge positions in 1-2 scrip in intraday ..so whats the option if we want to put a big capital...
You are right ..some methods cant be coded..as i trade on PRice Action..I cant code it..
As Your friend is experimenting..I was thinking the same to appoint computer operator.But I am trading Price ACtion...its very discreationary method.So I am searching some mechanical method or some thing which include indicator & define exit or entry rule..so any computer operator can trade those entry/exit..which can be a option for algo..but cost may be more..
Please share what are the results of that experiment..
thanks

 

[rmike]

My take on algo trading is as under :

1) Many think that algo trading is always profitable...it is not so, it can give quick losses too.

2) A complex method is difficult to programme in algo trading. Simple things like ORB,MA crossing etc can be easily programmed but one wonders whether those are profitable.

3) If we can incorporate different actions for trends and different action for sideways markets then algo trading could be great but that putting in algo will be difficult.

4) Algo trading has advantage of executing the trades without any greed or fear.

5) Getting a 100 % mechanical method which has edge in all types of markets is a difficult job.

Just to add.... While the pace of technology is gaining greater acceleration, semantics have been unable to keep pace. From the mathematical, as well as jargon, point of view an 'algo' and a 'mechanical system' can be said to be cut from the same cloth. Both are based (mostly, or in part) on an algorithm. However from the employment point of view of both in the trading arena, there can be said to be a fine differentiating line. To briefly summarize in layman terms - a mechanical method is quite literally the 'mechanization' of a setup to generate actionable (buy, sell, short etc) signals. Whereas an 'algo' is the mechanical vehicle employed to handle order execution (time/ quantity slicing, high frequency arbitration order handling etc) and market making functions. Interestingly, nowadays 'algos' are also employed as a kind of 'riot squad' for order stuffing and order pulling in thinly traded/ illiquid instruments

That having been said, pure algo ops are beyond the realm of the retail trader. Substantial investment and infrastructure is a prerequisite along with co-location to achieve a definable edge. Mechanical systems, on the other hand, can be implemented by retail traders. However, the art of creating one with a definable edge is an altogether separate topic

A trader friend is trying the following as an alternative to automated trading :

1) He has a well defined method with clearly defined stops and profit taking levels.

2) He is experimenting by employing 10th pass girls/boys ( he says preferably physically handicapped) and their job is to execute trades...they are not responsible for the trade outcome but if the trade is missed, they are answerable. Hadicapped because this work does not involve travelling etc and a handicap person can easily do the work.This is a desk job. It provides employment to physically handicapped.He will go only in the evening to see what is todays loss/profit....

This experiment is still at initial stages...I am eager to see what is the outcome of this experiment.

Smart_trade

Very interesting indeed!!! How much capital deployed, and the quantum of time that was required for training? Would request you to share the outcome and the lessons learnt (of course, only if your friend has no objection to the same)

in a discreationary method,its very difficult to trade more than 1-2 scrips

As it stands, even with a mechanical method an average retail trader with modest means may not be able to trade beyond a particular number of instruments. Am assuming that an average retail trader uses a single rig with a single monitor and uses a TA/ charting platform (for e.g amibroker) for trade generation. In this case, the trade generation will essentially require the chart of the instrument in question to be 'active'. There will be a usable upper limit (depends on your rig config, background apps etc) of 'active tabs' beyond which your platform will eventually grind down to a veritable crawl. Hence the employment of a mechanical system may not be a panacea for all ills .

P.S - Since have been there and done that, let me just advise you to take it on faith that discretionary trading has far greater edge. Caveat - One has to first develop the finer discretion

Regards,

 

[TradeJoker]

here they are
asthatrade.com/index.php

soon become asthmatrade.com

 

[classifiedindian]

Nifty Option Chain -

Bank Nifty Option Chain -

Advance Decline -

Regards

Which charting software or website do you use?

 

[amitrandive]

Bankers policy makes forex brokers bust.

Ideally before issuing out any policy,they should have studied the impact it.

Sudden changes in the banking policies should always be avoided.Policies which have a negative impact should be released gradually and by giving advance warning to all those involved.

Guess the super rich bankers will never learn this in their lives.

One such latest incident is by the Swiss National Bank.Our hearts goes out for all those who have lost businesses,jobs,careers and even normal family lives by abrupt policy change.

8 years chart of EUR/CHF ,all lost in a single day.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-15/thank-snb-truth

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...oker-stock-crashes-90-swiss-contagion-spreads

Lesson to be learnt : Don't put all your eggs in one basket.Keep aside some cash for crashes.Learn to diversify.

 

[sudoku1]

soon become asthmatrade.com

or maybe aatmatrade :-D

 

[Smart_trade]

Just to add.... While the pace of technology is gaining greater acceleration, semantics have been unable to keep pace. From the mathematical, as well as jargon, point of view an 'algo' and a 'mechanical system' can be said to be cut from the same cloth. Both are based (mostly, or in part) on an algorithm. However from the employment point of view of both in the trading arena, there can be said to be a fine differentiating line. To briefly summarize in layman terms - a mechanical method is quite literally the 'mechanization' of a setup to generate actionable (buy, sell, short etc) signals. Whereas an 'algo' is the mechanical vehicle employed to handle order execution (time/ quantity slicing, high frequency arbitration order handling etc) and market making functions. Interestingly, nowadays 'algos' are also employed as a kind of 'riot squad' for order stuffing and order pulling in thinly traded/ illiquid instruments

That having been said, pure algo ops are beyond the realm of the retail trader. Substantial investment and infrastructure is a prerequisite along with co-location to achieve a definable edge. Mechanical systems, on the other hand, can be implemented by retail traders. However, the art of creating one with a definable edge is an altogether separate topic

Very interesting indeed!!! How much capital deployed, and the quantum of time that was required for training? Would request you to share the outcome and the lessons learnt (of course, only if your friend has no objection to the same)

As it stands, even with a mechanical method an average retail trader with modest means may not be able to trade beyond a particular number of instruments. Am assuming that an average retail trader uses a single rig with a single monitor and uses a TA/ charting platform (for e.g amibroker) for trade generation. In this case, the trade generation will essentially require the chart of the instrument in question to be 'active'. There will be a usable upper limit (depends on your rig config, background apps etc) of 'active tabs' beyond which your platform will eventually grind down to a veritable crawl. Hence the employment of a mechanical system may not be a panacea for all ills .

P.S - Since have been there and done that, let me just advise you to take it on faith that discretionary trading has far greater edge. Caveat - One has to first develop the finer discretion

Regards,

Thanks for a very informative post.

Smart_trade

 

[amitrandive]

Did not want to get into this further. Am glad that you got benefited out of this '5-pointer'. Appreciate the thread owner's philanthropic nature but that does not reduce the funniness of 'no losing trades for 6 months' :lol: Nobody even questioned that claim and folks who went into that direction was ridiculed/laughed at by the same 'philanthropic' thread owner..thats the best part !!

Better if you contribute something positive and informative to read ,than spreading not required negativity,that too out of the context.

 

[Jai Mata Di]

Lesson to be learnt : Don't put all your eggs in one basket.Keep aside some cash for crashes.Learn to diversify.

That's why I always do positional overnight swing trade of Nifty Futures with Option(I do day trade mostly with Nifty Futures). It suit to my psychology, putting max 10-20% of capital for overnight option ensure me good slip at night. :lol:

I know it is very rare see a Gap Down of 200-500 points as Nifty Index is diversified with 50 stocks. But everything is a possibility and I wonder how many trader/broker go bankrupt if a biggest natural calamity/or nuclear bomb like thing happens overnight(say, Nifty open 3000pt lower )?

I know many positional swing traders impatiently keep eyes on SGX nifty, World Market at night. Even some of them try to track it during sleep(dreams), mostly because they know more risk is attached with their overnight trade.

We must NOT keep an OPEN position in F&O which can make us bankrupt under any circumstances (even in rarest of rare probabilities).
We must choose our trading capital and trades in derivatives in such a way, we can compensate our biggest loss under any circumstances (worst case/maximum loss).
Risk management is one of most important part in Derivative Trading.

Just from my thoughts (I know different people has different risk appetite & I am not expecting universal agreement).

Best Wishes & Happy Trading.
H.C.