Going with the Intraday Mini-Flow!!

[TFL]

Requesting you my Seniors and Friends to check the correctness of the 4 Bar Rule and Reversal Rules, I have posted for review. After confirmation I can add this to the reference library posts.

4 Bar Rule:
http://www.traderji.com/day-trading-stocks/25065-library-intraday-mini-flow-3.html#post251502

Reversals:
http://www.traderji.com/day-trading-stocks/25065-library-intraday-mini-flow-4.html#post251957

Thank you,
Hari.

 

[TFL]

explained very effectively, ST... even some of my personal doubts were cleared...

matter worthy of our library, hari

Yah...I am breaking it down with visual charts for easy understanding.
Will be adding to library soon. Really a nice way of presentation by ST.

Hari.

 

[rkkarnani]

Karnani Sir,
I had seen ST confirming this on previous occasions too.... and on a very rare day I have seen we are reversing a trade due to 4 bar rule.. hence, i did not pay much attention to the fine-print...






by the way, since Saint sir had told he'll be back on Monday (today), I had posted this too:



I would request Saint sir to express his views on the 4bar rule...
whether we shift the SAR as soon as the 4th bar as made a HH or LL (as the case may be), or we wait for its completion

Dont think we need any confirmation yet again! It is very clear. We wait till 4th and not there after.

 

[pulimath]

Hello Pulimath,

I am afraid your understanding is not quite correct. The filter we use is 14 and is a moving filter.This means that after we have our first 5 min bar,we have levels of High +14 to go long, and Low -14 to go short.we at this stage donot know which side the market is going to breakout.And these levels are valid for next 30 min ie upto 10:30 bar.

Suppose the market breaks the high of first 5 min bar in a bar 10 -10:30 bar but does not trigger long by going above 5 min bar high +14,then no long entry. For 11:00 bar of 30 min our buy level will be high of 10:30 bar +14 ....and so on till the entry is triggered. In 11:00 bar on 30 min ,the level to go short will be low of 10:30 bar less 7 (assuming 10:30 bar has made higher low than 10:00 bar on 5 min because if the short is triggered,this is the second move,as first was upmove,hence filter of 7 ).This is the concept of moving pivot.

We use 14 only for first move of the day. For all subsequent moves,our filter is 7 .

We are trading 30 min bars. 15 min bars to be used only if pivot is not clear on 30 and also 15 pivot should have confirmation from 30 or 60 min bars,atleast one of them. 15 min pivots by itself are no SAR points when we have opposite bias on 60 and 30 and not confirming. We got to be very careful and patient in reversing.

Best Wishes,

Smart_trade

Dear ST

First of all let me thank u for the Cristal clear clarification.
Today I have put what I have learned from learned members like you in to practice and then only this doubt arise. I request you people's continued help and guidance for going ahead.
i request you to post important turning points and levels as when they happen so that I can also cross check with my charts. i am using charts provided by
India Infoline. Today it showed some differences with what as mentioned in the thread. I think it will be fine to follow the levels given in the thread so as to avoid confusion, for the time being.
Anybody else have similar problem with India Infoline software ?
I would be thankful to hear from TTAdvance users.
i am ready to change to PIB or Sharekhan, if it is advised.

Once again I thank all my friends and looking forward for your continued guidance

With regards

Puliamth

 

[Smart_trade]

Karnani Sir,
I had seen ST confirming this on previous occasions too.... and on a very rare day I have seen we are reversing a trade due to 4 bar rule.. hence, i did not pay much attention to the fine-print...






by the way, since Saint sir had told he'll be back on Monday (today), I had posted this too:



I would request Saint sir to express his views on the 4bar rule...
whether we shift the SAR as soon as the 4th bar as made a HH or LL (as the case may be), or we wait for its completion

I distinctly remember this point settled by Saint as I was the one who had raised this querry. But I hate to go through few hundred pages like a lawyer looking for judgements and caselaw. And for my common sense once the low of 3rd bar is cracked which means the down move was continuing in the 4th bar,it makes no difference whether the high of 2nd bar (where we are going to move our stop) is challenged in 4th bar or any subsequent bars.

Friends,while we are on the issue,I feel that we try to shred each word of Saint and that may be putting him on defensive as he has to think what he said when. Saint is a trader and a teacher and not a Solicitor or legal expert drafting a legal document knowing fully well that each word will be debated,quoted,shredded etc. What he means by after completion of 4 th bar and not on the 31st min in the 4th bar (30 min in 4th bar fully complete.) What he probably means is we cannot consider 2 bars rule in 3 rd bar,he wants to see the downmove continue in the 4th bar as well. However this point of not waiting till 4th bar completion is well debated and settled. I am not prepared to waste my time doing some unproductive caselaw collection.And Saint can give different opinion on two similar situations.Let us not put him in the witnessbox and cross question ( one of our friends did that some time back ) This will kill the initiative and creativeness which Saint has in abundance so let us use it to our advantage .

If someone is not convinced he can continue the way he interpreted,a few errors dont bring the sky down in larger scheme of things.

Please take this post in positive way,not meant to criticise anyone . Saint's absence for few days is tough,let us not loose his posts forever. That will be our greatest loss.

Best Wishes,

Smart_trade

Best Wishes,

 

[pakatil]

Dear ST,

Very rightly said.

Let us remain simple Traders, not Lawyers.

Cheers

 

[ARMHM]

Friends,while we are on the issue,I feel that we try to shred each word of Saint and that may be putting him on defensive as he has to think what he said when. Saint is a trader and a teacher and not a Solicitor or legal expert drafting a legal document knowing fully well that each word will be debated,quoted,shredded etc.



Please take this post in positive way,not meant to criticise anyone . Saint's absence for few days is tough,let us not loose his posts forever. That will be our greatest loss.

Very nicely put.
Thanks

 

[ramling]

I distinctly remember this point settled by Saint as I was the one who had raised this querry. But I hate to go through few hundred pages like a lawyer looking for judgements and caselaw. And for my common sense once the low of 3rd bar is cracked which means the down move was continuing in the 4th bar,it makes no difference whether the high of 2nd bar (where we are going to move our stop) is challenged in 4th bar or any subsequent bars.

Friends,while we are on the issue,I feel that we try to shred each word of Saint and that may be putting him on defensive as he has to think what he said when. Saint is a trader and a teacher and not a Solicitor or legal expert drafting a legal document knowing fully well that each word will be debated,quoted,shredded etc. What he means by after completion of 4 th bar and not on the 31st min in the 4th bar (30 min in 4th bar fully complete.) What he probably means is we cannot consider 2 bars rule in 3 rd bar,he wants to see the downmove continue in the 4th bar as well. However this point of not waiting till 4th bar completion is well debated and settled. I am not prepared to waste my time doing some unproductive caselaw collection.And Saint can give different opinion on two similar situations.Let us not put him in the witnessbox and cross question ( one of our friends did that some time back ) This will kill the initiative and creativeness which Saint has in abundance so let us use it to our advantage .

If someone is not convinced he can continue the way he interpreted,a few errors dont bring the sky down in larger scheme of things.

Please take this post in positive way,not meant to criticise anyone . Saint's absence for few days is tough,let us not loose his posts forever. That will be our greatest loss.

Best Wishes,

Smart_trade

Best Wishes,

Sir,
I wish to bring to the kind attention of traders that if they come across a situation as mentioned above during trading,I suggest the individual carry the trade following his/her intrepretation and come with the solution in this post
With thanks,
S.R

 

[Sunil]

I distinctly remember this point settled by Saint as I was the one who had raised this querry. But I hate to go through few hundred pages like a lawyer looking for judgements and caselaw. And for my common sense once the low of 3rd bar is cracked which means the down move was continuing in the 4th bar,it makes no difference whether the high of 2nd bar (where we are going to move our stop) is challenged in 4th bar or any subsequent bars.

cool down ST...
i dont think anyone meant such cross-examination... a simple & small cloud of confusion is to be cleared... that's the only intention...

here is the post u r referring to....
(dugged out using advance search)

here's the link to your query

here's the answer by Saint Sir:

Yes,ST........wait for the first 4 bars to form,stop loss at where it was above the high of the 1st bar.After the completion of 4th bar LH-LL,move the stop to high of 2nd bar+room.Once 5th bar makes a LL,already you are moving stops to the high of the 3rd bar.If no LL,then stops remainabove the high of the 2nd bar.


Once again,to reiterate:

BAR 1 forms.

BAR 2 LH-LL .......Short below BAR 1 with room.Stops above high of BAR1

BAR 3 LH-LL.......Nothing to be done.Stops where it was.

BAR 4 LH-LL.......Nothing to be done till it is completed.After the end of the 4th Bar,move stops to the high of BAR 2.

From here,2 possibilities:a)BAR 5 makes a LL,then move stops to the high of BAR 3.b)BAR 5 does not make a LL,keep stops at high of BAR 2.

So on so forth for Bar 6.


Hope this clarifies...........this is the same as the 2 bar method in the 60min Flow,someone here coined the term 4 BAR rule here as there is no active management in a vertical move down till 4 bars are completely formed. Reversals till the 4th bar is formed require stops above the 1st bar to get taken out for us to get long.

Saint

so, the 4th consecutive HH or LL bar (as the case may be) needs to completed for shifting SAR
but for such 5th bar, no need to wait for completion

lock kar diya jaaye





one more confirmatory post

and it's reply by Saint Sir:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart_trade View Post


I think all of you are talking about the same thing and all are correct.

4 bar rule becomes applicable when we have min 4 consecutive bars with lows successively lower than the earlier bar in case of the down move.Also as per my understanding all 4 bars must close successively lower and 1-2 bars must be WRBs in this sequence. These two conditions are not specifically mentioned by Saint but from the examples I studied ,I have formed this impression.

If all the three conditions are not present then it makes no sense lowering the SAR level to high of bar 2+space after 4th bar,high of bar 3 +space after 5 th bar etc. So in effect 4 bar rule to be applied after a sustained and strong move with the purpose of protecting the profits and participating in the likely reversal !!!

This is my interpretation.

Best Wishes,

Smart_trade
Great stuff as always.........everyone else,have a look at the Bold Part in quote by ST.Have said this before already,but to reemphasise the point again,nicely put by ST.

Saint
here's the reply's link



ST, I understand your feelings abt Saint sir, and reciprocate the same. It's just that, in such small grey areas, his experience comes handy to us.... we all value Saint Sir, and I, myself, try to keep this thread least chaotic & confusing

 

[Smart_trade]

cool down ST...
i dont think anyone meant such cross-examination... a simple & small cloud of confusion is to be cleared... that's the only intention...

here is the post u r referring to....
(dugged out using advance search)

here's the link to your query

here's the answer by Saint Sir:



so, the 4th consecutive HH or LL bar (as the case may be) needs to completed for shifting SAR
but for such 5th bar, no need to wait for completion

lock kar diya jaaye





one more confirmatory post

and it's reply by Saint Sir:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart_trade View Post


I think all of you are talking about the same thing and all are correct.

4 bar rule becomes applicable when we have min 4 consecutive bars with lows successively lower than the earlier bar in case of the down move.Also as per my understanding all 4 bars must close successively lower and 1-2 bars must be WRBs in this sequence. These two conditions are not specifically mentioned by Saint but from the examples I studied ,I have formed this impression.

If all the three conditions are not present then it makes no sense lowering the SAR level to high of bar 2+space after 4th bar,high of bar 3 +space after 5 th bar etc. So in effect 4 bar rule to be applied after a sustained and strong move with the purpose of protecting the profits and participating in the likely reversal !!!

This is my interpretation.

Best Wishes,

Smart_trade
Great stuff as always.........everyone else,have a look at the Bold Part in quote by ST.Have said this before already,but to reemphasise the point again,nicely put by ST.

Saint
here's the reply's link



ST, I understand your feelings abt Saint sir, and reciprocate the same. It's just that, in such small grey areas, his experience comes handy to us.... we all value Saint Sir, and I, myself, try to keep this thread least chaotic & confusing

Thanks Sunil for correcting me. There was a confusion in 4th or 5 th and onwards bars. I stand corrected.

And I am pretty cool,have no intention of proving anything to anyone,it serves no purpose for me,but I had seen a post in 60 min where the guy quoted 3-4 posts from Saint and it was like a cross examination. Did not like that at all hence this post. You probably unnecessarily took it on you. And we know what happened in 60 min ...thread.

Will probably remain careful in posting anything now as it is misunderstood.

Best Wishes,

Smart_trade