New Intermed Uptrend!!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi Sandy,

The below is an extract from SwingTrader's Position Sizing Strategy in the Risk n Money Management Forum.Just read it,choose the strategy that you are comfortable with,and enforce it trade after trade.

Hello Everyone,

Now that the market is in a short term downtrend and stock tip threads have mostly disappeared I think it is a good time to discuss what is really important in trading - Position Sizing / Money Management Strategies. I Would like to hear/discuss the different sorts of position sizing strategies experienced traders here use for stock trading.

For new traders:

"Position Sizing" is the way you determine the number of shares of a stock you would buy when you decide to initiate a trade (and also how many shares you would continue to hold throughout the duration of the trade). It also decides how much equity will be allocated to a single position. Position Sizing is used by everyone even though they might not think about it (usually traders just buy 100 or 50 shares or any number that they are comfortable with or can afford). But good position sizing is what makes or breaks a trader, it is the strategy that keeps a trader in the business longer. It turns a mediocre trading system into an excellent one (but won't help a losing system).

The most popular/recommended position sizing strategy is to risk not more than 2% on any single position.

New traders - make sure you go thru' previous threads in "Risk & Money Management" section of this forum, there are good posts on risk & money mgmt by Traderji & CreditViolet.

Books on position sizing:

Trade Your Way To Financial Freedom by Dr. Van Tharp
Portfolio Management Formulas by Ralph Vince
The Mathematics of Money Management by Ralph Vince
The Trading Game by Ryan Jones

My Strategy:

I use a combination of percent risk & percent volatility strategy. Here are the rules I use:

- My main aim is to ensure that I stay in the business longer so my trading system gets a fair chance to realise its potential.
- No position should be greater than 10% of my total trading equity
- I don't risk more than 1% of my total trading equity on any single position
- I make sure my positions are "volatility balanced". In other words I make sure that all my positions fluctuate approximately the same each day in the market. I do this using Average True Range of the stock.

Example:

Say I am planning to buy HINDLEVER, here is what I would do to determine the number of shares I would buy:

Total Equity : 100,000.00
Max Equity for each trade : 10,000.00 (10% of total equity)
Risk Amount : 1,000.00 (1% of total equity)
Volatility Amount : 500.00 (0.5% of total equity. This is the fluctuation level per day per position)

Average True Range (10 Day Avg) : 5.63
Last Market Closing Price : 173.20 (For simplicity assume this is the entry price)
Stop Loss at : 163.40 (Will get out just below previous reaction low)

Number of shares to buy (percent risk model) = Risk Amount / (Entry Price - Stop Loss Price)
Number of shares to buy (percent risk model) = 1000 / (173.20 - 163.40)
Number of shares to buy (percent risk model) = 102 Shares

Number of shares to buy (percent volatility model) = Volatility Amount / Average True Range (10 Day)
Number of shares to buy (percent volatility model) = 500 / 5.63
Number of shares to buy (percent volatility model) = 88 shares

Number of shares to buy (based on Max Equity for each trade) = Max Equity for each trade / Last Market Closing Price
Number of shares to buy (based on Max Equity for each trade) = 10000 / 173.20
Number of shares to buy (based on Max Equity for each trade) = 57 shares

I will buy minimum number of shares determined from the above three models. So in the above case I would buy 57 shares.

So here is what I basically do. I am still trying to fine tune these things. The above parameters used are what I am currently using but I am in the process of doing trial & error to come up with parameters that fit me well. I would now like to hear what the experienced traders here do.

--SwingTrader
Hope this helped............it's very important that a trader knows how to share size.So please,please absorb all this stuff,assimilate it and enforce it.

All the best!
Saint
 
And one more from yet another of our greats in this forum who is quite tied up with many things as of now,Credit Violet.

Money management is the process of analyzing trades for risk and potential profits, determining how much risk, if any, is acceptable and managing a trade position (if taken) to control risk and maximize profitability.
Many traders pay lip service to money management while spending the bulk of their time and energy trying to find the perfect (read: imaginary) trading system or entry method. But traders ignore money management at their own peril.

The importance of money management can best be shown through drawdown analysis.
Drawdown
Drawdown is simply the amount of money you lose trading, expressed as a percentage of your total trading equity. If all your trades were profitable, you would never experience a drawdown. Drawdown does not measure overall performance, only the money lost while achieving that performance. Its calculation begins only with a losing trade and continues as long as the account hits new equity lows.


Suppose you begin with an account of 10,000 and lose 2,000. Your drawdown would be 20%. On the 8,000 that remains, if you subsequently make 1,000, then lose 2,000, you now have a drawdown of 30% (8,000 + 1,000 - 2,000 =7,000, a 30% loss on the original equity stake of 10,000). But, if you made 4,000 after the initial 2,000 loss (increasing your account equity to 12,000), then lost another 3,000, your drawdown would be 25% (12,000 - 3,000 = 9,000, a 25% drop from the new equity high of 12,000).

Maximum drawdown is the largest percentage drop in your account between equity peaks. In other words, it's how much money you lose until you get back to breakeven. If you began with 10,000 and lost 4,000 before getting back to breakeven, your maximum drawdown would be 40%. Keep in mind that no matter how much you are up in your account at any given time--100%, 200%, 300%--a 100% drawdown will wipe out your trading account. This leads us to our next topic: the difficulty of recovering from drawdowns.

Even worse is that as the drawdowns deepen, the recovery percentage begins to grow geometrically. For example, a 50% loss requires a 100% return just to get back to break even (see Table 1 and Figure 1 for details).

Professional traders and money mangers are well aware of how difficult it is to recover from drawdowns. Those who succeed long term have the utmost respect for risk. They get on top and stay on top, not by being gunslingers and taking huge risks, but by controlling risk through proper money management. Sure, we all like to read about famous traders who parlay small sums into fortunes, but what these stories fail to mention is that many such traders, through lack of respect for risk, are eventually wiped out.


Guidelines that should help your long-term trading success.
1. Risk only a small percentage of total equity on each trade, preferably no more than 2% of your portfolio value. I know of two traders who have been actively trading for over 15 years, both of whom have amassed small fortunes during this time. In fact, both have paid for their dream homes with cash out of their trading accounts. I was amazed to find out that one rarely trades over 1,000 shares of stock and the other rarely trades more than two or three futures contracts at a time. Both use extremely tight stops and risk less than 1% per trade.

2. Limit your total portfolio risk to 20%. In other words, if you were stopped out on every open position in your account at the same time, you would still retain 80% of your original trading capital.

3. Keep your reward-to-risk ratio at a minimum of 2:1, and preferably 3:1 or higher. In other words, if you are risking 1 point on each trade, you should be making, on average, at least 2 points. An S&P futures system I recently saw did just the opposite: It risked 3 points to make only 1. That is, for every losing trade, it took 3 winners make up for it. The first drawdown (string of losses) would wipe out all of the trader's money.

4. Be realistic about the amount of risk required to properly trade a given market. For instance, don't kid yourself by thinking you are only risking a small amount if you are position trading (holding overnight) in a high-flying technology stock or a highly leveraged and volatile market like the S&P futures.

5. Understand the volatility of the market you are trading and adjust position size accordingly. That is, take smaller positions in more volatile stocks and futures. Also, be aware that volatility is constantly changing as markets heat up and cool off.

6. Understand position correlation. If you are long heating oil, crude oil and unleaded gas, in reality you do not have three positions. Because these markets are so highly correlated (meaning their price moves are very similar), you really have one position in energy with three times the risk of a single position. It would essentially be the same as trading three crude, three heating oil, or three unleaded gas contracts.

7. Lock in at least a portion of windfall profits. If you are fortunate enough to catch a substantial move in a short amount of time, liquidate at least part of your position. This is especially true for short-term trading, for which large gains are few and far between.

8. The more active a trader you are, the less you should risk per trade. Obviously, if you are making dozens of trades a day you can't afford to risk even 2% per trade--one really bad day could virtually wipe you out. Longer-term traders who may make three to four trades per year could risk more, say 3-5% per trade. Regardless of how active you are, just limit total portfolio risk to 20% (rule #2).

9. Make sure you are adequately capitalized. There is no "Holy Grail" in trading. However, if there was one, I think it would be having enough money to trade and taking small risks. These principles help you survive long enough to prosper. I know of many successful traders who wiped out small accounts early in their careers. It was only until they became adequately capitalized and took reasonable risks that they survived as long term traders.

10. Never add to or "average down" a losing position. If you are wrong, admit it and get out. Two wrongs do not make a right.

11. Avoid pyramiding altogether or only pyramid properly. By "properly," I mean only adding to profitable positions and establishing the largest position first. In other words the position should look like an actual pyramid. For example, if your typical total position size in a stock is 1000 shares then you might initially buy 600 shares, add 300 (if the initial position is profitable), then 100 more as the position moves in your direction. In addition, if you do pyramid, make sure the total position risk is within the guidelines outlined earlier (i.e., 2% on the entire position, total portfolio risk no more that 20%, etc.).

12. Always have an actual stop in the market. "Mental stops" do not work.

13. Be willing to take money off the table as a position moves in your favor; "2-for-1 money management1" is a good start. Essentially, once your profits exceed your initial risk, exit half of your position and move your stop to breakeven on the remainder of your position. This way, barring overnight gaps, you are ensured, at worst, a breakeven trade, and you still have the potential for gains on the remainder of the position.

14. Understand the market you are trading. This is especially true in derivative trading (i.e. options, futures).

15. Strive to keep maximum drawdowns between 20 and 25%. Once drawdowns exceed this amount it becomes increasingly difficult, if not impossible, to completely recover. The importance of keeping drawdowns within reason was illustrated in the first installment of this series.

16. Be willing to stop trading and re-evaluate the markets and your methodology when you encounter a string of losses. The markets will always be there. Gann said it best in his book, How to Make Profits in Commodities, published over 50 years ago: "When you make one to three trades that show losses, whether they be large or small, something is wrong with you and not the market. Your trend may have changed. My rule is to get out and wait. Study the reason for your losses. Remember, you will never lose any money by being out of the market."

17. Consider the psychological impact of losing money. Unlike most of the other techniques discussed here, this one can't be quantified. Obviously, no one likes to lose money. However, each individual reacts differently. You must honestly ask yourself, What would happen if I lose X%? Would it have a material effect on my lifestyle, my family or my mental well being? You should be willing to accept the consequences of being stopped out on any or all of your trades. Emotionally, you should be completely comfortable with the risks you are taking.

The main point is that money management doesn't have to be rocket science. It all boils down to understanding the risk of the investment, risking only a small percentage on any one trade (or trading approach) and keeping total exposure within reason. While the list above is not exhaustive, I believe it will help keep you out of the majority of trouble spots. Those who survive to become successful traders not only study methodologies for trading, but they also study the risks associated with them. I strongly urge you to do the same.
I realise that a simple link would have sufficed,but also know that not many people seem to frequent these threads even on giving a link.I hope that at least a few would dedicate some time in reading these threads,and absorbing these principles that are vital for profitting in the markets.

All the best!
Saint
 
Hi Saint!

Great things told by you. Friends only rule of trading and last rule of trading is your ability to sustain in this market, i.e., protecting your capital. You wil find if you can do that, profits will follow you.
 
Saint said:
Hi Mejo,

Your stop loss should have been at 99 on Arvind Mills...........not taking a stop loss is not only damaging to one's capital,but to one's psyche as well.I also do not propagate that you average down.All these are breaks in discipline that can destroy an investor/trader.

In the case of Arvind Mills,we could be near the bottom of this fall.......but we don't know that.Averaging down constitutes gambling,not trading.Breaking 91.5,get out.......stalk it for a reentry and try to get in later.

When there's a massive bleed,first priority is to stop that bleed.

Saint
Saint,
Thanks for your valuable advise. at this point I will wait for a break out on Arvind Mills ....

Thanks
Mejo
 
Share sizing is an art form .....Understanding it gives you great power and great profits.Also the stop loss when triggerred does not affect you in the least.One just moves on to get another stock and make profits there.

Let us for example use ISPAT INDS.I caught this move from November last year so it's easy to quote this as an example.

STEP 1:First,I should know the capital that I have.Let us presume it is 10 lakhs that I am playing with.How much am I willing to risk per trade?Anywhere bet 0.5%-2%.Let us say that I am willing to risk only 1% per trade.Therefore what is my risk per trade?Ans:1/100 times 10L=Rs10,000/-

STEP 2:Next we go to our charts.Entered on November 3rd at 13 with a stop loss of 11.So we got our ENTRY and STOP LOSS.

STEP 3:Now is this trade worth it?Therefore we calculate the reward to risk.The ratio should be greater than 2:1.Our target is 20.That gives us a 3.5:1 reward to risk.

So this trade is worth taking,We have a great entry point,a stop loss and a target.The reward to risk is worth it.But how many shares?

STEP 4:A s we calculated just now,for a capital of 10lakhs,we are risking only Rs10,000 for this trade.Meaning if the stop loss is hit,we lose Rs10,000.So how many shares do we buy?Ans:10,000 divided by the dist from entry to stop loss=10,000 divided by(13-11)=5000.

So we buy 5000 share of ISPAT at 13 with a stop loss of 11 and a provisional target of 20,with a reward to risk of 3.5:1.

Once a perfect entry,stop loss and share size is looked into,the trade is now on auto-gear.Then we trail stop it upwards till target or till taken out.

Hope I have helped answer your doubt.

Happy Trading!!
Saint
Dear Saint, just happened to browse Traderji today and find your wonderful writing. To me, this is one of the best article I came across which is nicely explained taking Indian Market into consideration. I am regretting how I had missed this post earlier. Now a days not finding time due to unexpected work pressure. Apology for not posting regularly. Great stuff and also your analogy of Trader to Lion was superb. Great going. Would you mind sending a test mail to me on nkpanjiyar at yahoo dot com.

cheers,
nkpanjiyar
 
hi saint,
my education is turning expensive (of course not something i cannot afford!)
all the same please guide me the uses of volumes along with MA(say3-13-39)
maybe u use some other combination of MA?
whatever, i am at my wits end trying to see a pattern in prices along with volumes.
my bad trades are hindustan composites and klg systel(may make money still, but not satisfactory)
regards
 
Hi saint..went thru ur postings on "position sizing"...found it truely enlightening...

The posts from swingtrader and credit violet were great..

credit violet had posted about a great site some time back for trading news letters
http://www.rsofhouston.com/index2.htm

found a really interesting 1 hour interview on the 16 deadly mistakes in trading..

http://www.rsofhouston.com/Media/16_Deadly_Trading_Mistakes.m3u

members can open this url in windows media player or real player..

A great learning for ne trader...

Cheers
ML
 
Hi Saint,
Request your opinion on the following:
1.) Teledata Info : You had mentioned a month back that the weekly charts looked favorable for a rise. Does that look like the case now ?

2.) Sonata Software : Proposects of this stock ?

3.) Tata Tele : Prospects ahead ? Also, in light of the Temasek buying 26% stake ....


Your inputs are appreciated as always.

Vikas
 
jraj said:
Hello Saint!

Yet another excellent post.It's always a pleasure to read your posts.

Thank You
Jay Raj
Thank you for your kind words,myfriend!

Saint
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads