Nifty Futures Trading Part 2 (Positional)

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Sunil

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hi buddy,
wt a nice way to post the chart, so thankful, as u said this non expected $ rupee move,changed the basic fundamentals along with foreword pe multiples.
ideally if a fii brought index 6 month back ( when $ at 40 odd levels)then if he sell today ( when $ at 45 odd level)he will earn 10% profit( including all the transaction cost), considering index didnt move.
nah nah alex...
small misunderstanding/miscalculation...

dumdum has chartically shown the BIG problem FIIs are facing over here in Indian market... FALLING RUPEE is adding to their woes besides this big time bearish condition.

Let's take your illustration:
An FII wanted to invest Rs 1 Lac six months back in Nifty. He had to shell out $ 2500 (at the rate mentioned by you Rs 40 to a $)
Now, after six months, if your are assuming that Nifty did not move at all - so, market value is still equal to initial investment value ie Rs 1 lac..
If the FII wants to sell this investment, then he will get back Rs 1 Lac but in dollar terms, he will be getting only $ 2222 (at rate of Rs 45 to a dollar)..

HE HAS LOST MORE THAN 10% (and not gained) OF HIS INVESTMENT IN DOLLAR TERMS & THAT'S WHAT THE LOWER CHART IS SHOWING CORRECTLY..

Because of liquidity / solvency problems back home, FIIs are compelled to sell their investments in emerging markets. But, here, it's proving to be a DOUBLE WHAMMY for them.
Now, their $ 2500 / Rs 1 Lac is now having market value of Rs 50000 (assuming 50% correction) but in $ terms it is equal to $ 1111 (50000/45)
ie LOSS of more than 55% of initial invt.
ie 10% (as shown in prev paragraph) more than what DIIs have lost here.


those who earn or invest in dollars are happier lot (eg IT cos, oil marketing cos., any relative working abroad, and sending money back to India)
for example, I invested in Nasdaq Rs 1 lac / $ 2500 six months back. If, as per your illustration, the index did not move at all after 6 months, and I sell that investement, then I will be getting back $ 2500 back... but on converting to rupees, I get Rs 1,12,500 (2500 * 45 conv rate).. ie 12.5% profit, even though the index yielded zero return...

FIIs are not selling because of 10% profit in currency conversion - it's actually a loss...
their fear is more bearish conditions (ie nifty testing 3800) + double whammy of rupee falling more possibly to 50 (ie $1 = Rs 50).. just imagine their loss then a that time.. so instead of waiting for such a scenario, they are thinking to let's get out at a comparatively smaller loss in $ terms..

that's why some local mutual funds, which invest in global stocks like Principal, Fidelity, Franklin, have given better returns vis-a-vis their invetsments in Indian markets, even though there has been a global meltdown... (better does not mean more profit... it can also mean less loss)
 

Sunil

Well-Known Member
DOLLEX 50 gives a picture os Sensex returns in dollar terms...

so, let's see the actual caculations as per the above two charts:

Index - peak value at May start - bottom value in Mid-july
Sensex - 17500 - 12750
Dollex - 3550 - 2400

Sensex lost from 17500 to 12750 (ie 27% loss)
But, Dollex lost from 3550 to 2400 (ie 32% loss)

Let's calculate the recent gains from our 3800 nifty to 4200 nifty (friday's close) (10% gain) (ie from mid july till date)

Sensex gained from 12750 to 14000 (ie 10% return)
But, Dollex gained from 2400 to 2500 in same period (ONLY 4% RETURN, IN COMPARISON TO NIFTY & SENSEX RETURN OF 10%).. as correctly mentioned by dumdum, the fall of rupee was sharper in this period...

JAAN NAHIN JALEGI FIIs KI....
 

Sunil

Well-Known Member
this currency risk was always there..
but then hedging instruments come handy, if view taken correctly...
+
in bullish conditions, minor loss due to currency is unavoidable, but acceptable (atleast more returns than their own local index Dow or Nasdaq)

in bearish conditions, it will just add salt to your wounds
 

Sunil

Well-Known Member
that's why in early part of 1990s, when rupee was being majorly devalued by our Govt, FIIs stayed away due to above reasons...

and in 2003, after the tech bubble-burst, when rupee had fallen to shameless value of 50-52, FIIs smelt not only lower index PE, but also possible rupee appreciation...
they actually gained more than anyone in India from Sensex 5000 to 20000... dollar-rupee adding icing as it rose from around 50 to around 35-38 (24% more return coz of currency)
 
C

Czar

Guest
hi buddy,
wt a nice way to post the chart, so thankful, as u said this non expected $ rupee move,changed the basic fundamentals along with foreword pe multiples.
ideally if a fii brought index 6 month back ( when $ at 40 odd levels)then if he sell today ( when $ at 45 odd level)he will earn 10% profit( including all the transaction cost), considering index didnt move.
What Sunil says is right Alex, in short to benefit from currency fluctuations, Fii gotta buy when Rupee weak & sell when Rupee strong...
 

xtalk

Active Member
FIIs lost 17-18% in $ term just due to currency fluctuations (39 to 46). All of a sudden strong $ is hurting all EMs and EU. I wonder when RBI will step in! What if next week rupee hits 47?! More sell-off.
 
C

Czar

Guest
Worst case scenario... chart as per log scale, thanks to SatDa...

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your comments... as we are on the verge of a move...

Does'nt matter whAt fii or dii or intl markets do, the charts are in bear market, matter of time... this is an extremely predictive view, only for discussion...

PS: Some how I managed to clumsily delete all Nifty charts posted last week in pattern recog thread, sorry
 

orderflow13

Well-Known Member
that's why in early part of 1990s, when rupee was being majorly devalued by our Govt, FIIs stayed away due to above reasons...

and in 2003, after the tech bubble-burst, when rupee had fallen to shameless value of 50-52, FIIs smelt not only lower index PE, but also possible rupee appreciation...
they actually gained more than anyone in India from Sensex 5000 to 20000... dollar-rupee adding icing as it rose from around 50 to around 35-38 (24% more return coz of currency)
Thanks sunil for clearing the confusion,and avoid fuhrer misleading.:) you are right,in $ term it will be erosion of fii capital.
And with such a weakening of rupee,we lost hope of any fuhrer interest rate cut( if it was on the horizon at all),as that will again depreciate the currency.....man its becoming very gloomy picture out there for bulls and czarji's chart not helping either :D
 

orderflow13

Well-Known Member
Worst case scenario... chart as per log scale, thanks to SatDa...

[your comments... as we are on the verge of a move...

Does'nt matter whAt fii or dii or intl markets do, the charts are in bear market, matter of time... this is an extremely predictive view, only for discussion...

seems totally bearish to me. Is it making any wave pattern ?
 
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