SEBI's new move to cut retailers participation in F&O!

Exactly, it's actually high time a certification is made mandatory to trade in leveraged instruments.... like a driving license. Though people will still find loopholes and trade through proxies.
I was curious about your signature and opened it. Now, the days of compouding would be over really if SEBI kills liquidity in the market. I make small profits but what if that is also taken away from me? The current SEBI move is akin to it.

I am all means in favour of a certification- I think it would help beginner traders a lot. I was ignorant of many risks and lost money in my first 2 years of trading career, only now am I seeing profits. All of these are because I became better with time.
 
Will this move applicable for Commodity segment also?
I hope this will not happen for any segments. Hope for the best, don't have any option now. Just to concentrate on day to day life, its very hard to be normal. For me I am leaving my job to become a full time trader. My testing phase and losing phase is over. If this happens my life will have to go for alternate option which is very difficult for me. Very frustrated.
it is also applicable for commodities I am afraid. I hope they restrict trading in agricultural commodities though - that creates artificial inflationary situation of essential agri commodities.
 

vikas2131

Well-Known Member
They discussed this issue that using notional value option turnover might be looking high and the commitee found that no standard formula is used in world markets for option turnover so they instructed the exchanges to continue to provide both types of turnover.

4.3 Ratio of turnover in derivatives to turnover in cash market is around 15 times. To what extent the drivers of this ratio in India are comparable with drivers in other markets.
Feedback
4.3.1 Total 84 responses have been received on this issue, out of which 51 responses are from institutions including stock brokers and 30 responses are from individual investors.
4.3.2 The majority (74%) of the respondents felt that notional turnover has a multiplier effect due to the underlying price. Current notional reporting of turnover (in case of options) unduly inflates turnover of derivatives.


4.3.6 The ratio of turnover in equity derivatives segment after taking into account only the premium paid for option contracts to turnover in equity cash segment, on an average, ranges between 2 to 4, while the same ratio based on notional turnover ranges between 12 to 15. This is broadly in line with the comparable statistics seen in different jurisdictions.
4.3.7 Internationally, there is no uniform practice of disseminating derivative turnover either on notional value or premium value. As per data made available by World Federation of Exchanges, option turnover is generally disseminated on the basis of notional value.
4.3.8 In 2015, SEBI advised exchanges to disseminate option turnover on premium basis along with notional values in order to increase transparency and provide additional information to market participants.
Proposal:
4.3.9 In view of the above, it is proposed that we may continue with the option turnover disclosures on premium along with notional value.
This confirms my thinking. Definitely they will push retail traders towards options on buy side only to make sure their risk is limited.
 
What SEBI is trying to say is if you do not own a Mercedes, you cannot drive on the expressway with your old dabba Maruti car because it may not be road worthy. why not have tests to determine road worthiness? Riding a super bike is also very risky but yet it is allowed to those that have a valid licence. So, why not license traders too? SEBI has test centers in many cities since they conduct many certification programs. So, SEBI can conduct basic tests to determine if an aspiring F&O trader has the required knowledge of the the derivatives market. If a candidate clears this exam, then the broker can allow the trader without any restrictions of net worth.

SEBI has a fair point in saying that people take undue risks in derivatives. Many of us here may be responsible and knowledgeable but a large majority of people have no clue how/why options are priced the way they are. Hell, many do not even know why futures trade at a premium to spot prices. From my own personal experience, I can say that I lost a lot of money in F&O during my learning days, most of which I can attribute to a lack of through understanding of the market dynamics. For ex buying options when IVs were going through the roof etc. In hindsight, I think that if I had the knowledge back then, so many costly mistakes could have been avoided. A certification is a better way than impose blanket bans or by making participation difficult.

Derivatives are not speculative instruments. They are only meant for hedging and should be treated as such. When it is misused, regulators have no choice but to step in and pull the plug. I, personally do not approve of SEBI's plan to restricting traders via the net worth route. I am sure there are better ways of achieving this. (Education people may be one way) I'm ok with some sensible restrictions in F&O trading. But, I strongly oppose any move by SEBI to impose any restrictions on Equity trading and investments India is a growing economy and one of the best ways for common man to escape the shackles of impoverishment is by participating in India's growth story. What better way of doing this than by participating in Equities??
How SEBI or any regulator can step-in to define "Product Suitability" for its participants? It is the very work of the self-participant to figure that out based on their personal needs.

SEBI's stance to protect newbies is justified, but, assuming the experienced retailers under the same hood is discriminatory.

So how about allowing participation in the Derivatives segment by:
1. Those meeting the Net-worth/ITR, or,
2. By Certification, or,
3. By past trading records submitted by brokers showing the ability of an individual to trade.

There must be clear-cut easy guidelines laid out giving chance to everybody willing to participate and not just throttle everybody's neck with hard-and-fast rules.

Stipulating Certification won't be that challenging as the process is already in place. SEBI would just need to deem the required NSE certifications (NISMs) out of the available ones or implement their own. Aspiring participants get themselves enrolled, appear for the exam, clear it and send a copy of the certificate to the broker, who will acknowledge and intimidate SEBI (or whomever concerned) about the same.

I think doing this will be win-win for both SEBI and Retail. As it will be based on either money-power or merit-power for participation in Derivatives. Those with money, takes the risk. Those without money but is accredited or by virtue of previous track-record, knows the risk.

Now it will be very childish on SEBI's part, if they cap the Cash segment too on the basis of Networth/ITR or Merit or whatever.
 
Definitely they will push retail traders towards options on buy side only to make sure their risk is limited.
But buying options is more riskier considering time-decay. Buying options can be only profitable for far expiry OTM CE/PE with a chance of increase in Volatility. On the contrary if probabilities are hedged properly, irrespective of the market direction, one can pocket premium by selling options using time-decay. So, contrastingly to the theory wherein selling options inherit unlimited risk, practically speaking, buying options are more riskier than selling options.

For me freedom to strategize my trades are more important. So, when market is expected to be volatile, buying options are profitable. And when market is expected to be subside with less volatility selling options are profitable. Anyways I am meeting my exposures with required margin. Then why somebody is discriminating me on the basis of my creed?
 
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vikas2131

Well-Known Member
But buying options is more riskier considering time-decay. Buying options can be only profitable for far expiry OTM CE/PE with a chance of increase in Volatilies. On the contrary if probabilities are hedged properly, irrespective of the market direction, one can pocket premium by selling option. So, practically speaking buying options are more riskier than selling options.
In Buying options one could only lose up-to the amount , one paid whereas in selling option , risk is unlimited .. This is how Sebi and Govt is seeing this.
 

Riskyman

Well-Known Member
How SEBI or any regulator can step-in to define "Product Suitability" for its participants? It is the very work of the self-participant to figure that out based on their personal needs.
By virtue of being a "regulator" SEBI or any regulator for that matter of fact can decide product suitability out of certain available options. It can be conditional too. If you leave that choice with individuals, all hell will break loose as people will start dabba trading on the streetside or start betting on a cock fight. So product suitability is definitely a regulator's job.

SEBI's stance to protect newbies is justified, but, assuming the experienced retailers under the same hood is discriminatory.

So how about allowing participation in the Derivatives segment by:
1. Those meeting the Net-worth/ITR, or,
2. By Certification, or,
3. By past trading records submitted by brokers showing the ability of an individual to trade.

There must be clear-cut easy guidelines laid out giving chance to everybody willing to participate and not just throttle everybody's neck with hard-and-fast rules.
Why should net worth be a criteria? We traders are exactly against this. Aren't we?
Certification seems acceptable.
Past trading records... hmmm... past performance is no gaurantee for future gains..

See, in my view, this is not about your ability to make money etc. A flip of a coin can make money. However, this is more about managing exposure to risk, specially that risk of which people do not seem to have any knowledge of. This is exactly what SEBI is trying to achieve. To stop naive and irresponsible people from blowing up their money in the markets. At least then the regulator will not get flak for not doing its job.
 
By virtue of being a "regulator" SEBI or any regulator for that matter of fact can decide product suitability out of certain available options. It can be conditional too. If you leave that choice with individuals, all hell will break loose as people will start dabba trading on the streetside or start betting on a cock fight. So product suitability is definitely a regulator's job.
I want to leverage my trades using derivatives or simply take delivery as an investor, I as a trader/investor shall decide my "product suitability". If I am failing to, I shall learn the processes, techniques, methods, to do so. Thats is how, I think I will justify myself as a trader - I am aware of my actions, I am mitigating my risks before applying my plan. After all I am meeting all the taxes, charges, liabilities, formalities to be able to participate. It's not about all "I", it's about every individual who participate in the market.

All functions are already in place, why a regulator or anybody is interfering and discriminating?

Why should net worth be a criteria? We traders are exactly against this. Aren't we?
Certification seems acceptable.
Past trading records... hmmm... past performance is no gaurantee for future gains..
All I am asking is to give varied options and lay down opportunity for everybody. Those with money, takes the risk. Those without money but is accredited or by virtue of previous track-record, knows the risk. A win-win for both SEBI and Retail......

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Riskyman

Well-Known Member
I want to leverage my trades using derivatives or simply take delivery as an investor, I as a trader/investor shall decide my "product suitability". If I am failing to, I shall learn the processes, techniques, methods, to do so. Thats is how, I think I will justify myself as a trader - I am aware of my actions, I am mitigating my risks before applying my plan. After all I am meeting all the taxes, charges, liabilities, formalities to be able to participate. It's not about all "I", it's about every individual who participate in the market.

All functions are already in place, why a regulator or anybody is interfering and discriminating?

All I am asking is to give varied options and lay down opportunity for everybody. Those with money, takes the risk. Those without money but is accredited or by virtue of previous track-record, knows the risk. A win-win for both SEBI and Retail......
Nobody is stopping you bro!. All they are saying is they want to restrict how much exposure an individual can take. Like I said I am not in favor of any restriction based on net worth alone. At the moment, we can only discuss various points for exchange of perspectives and just to kill some time. What SEBI does eventually is what it does :)
 

bpr

Well-Known Member
They discussed this issue that using notional value option turnover might be looking high and the commitee found that no standard formula is used in world markets for option turnover so they instructed the exchanges to continue to provide both types of turnover.

4.3 Ratio of turnover in derivatives to turnover in cash market is around 15 times. To what extent the drivers of this ratio in India are comparable with drivers in other markets.
Feedback
4.3.1 Total 84 responses have been received on this issue, out of which 51 responses are from institutions including stock brokers and 30 responses are from individual investors.
4.3.2 The majority (74%) of the respondents felt that notional turnover has a multiplier effect due to the underlying price. Current notional reporting of turnover (in case of options) unduly inflates turnover of derivatives.


4.3.6 The ratio of turnover in equity derivatives segment after taking into account only the premium paid for option contracts to turnover in equity cash segment, on an average, ranges between 2 to 4, while the same ratio based on notional turnover ranges between 12 to 15. This is broadly in line with the comparable statistics seen in different jurisdictions.
4.3.7 Internationally, there is no uniform practice of disseminating derivative turnover either on notional value or premium value. As per data made available by World Federation of Exchanges, option turnover is generally disseminated on the basis of notional value.
4.3.8 In 2015, SEBI advised exchanges to disseminate option turnover on premium basis along with notional values in order to increase transparency and provide additional information to market participants.
Proposal:
4.3.9 In view of the above, it is proposed that we may continue with the option turnover disclosures on premium along with notional value.
Basically they don't want to fix the issue. They will show both format so what?. what will be used for all calculation/policy making decide that damn it ...they are clearly avoiding the issue. very unfortunate. Or maybe indirectly they are saying Notional value is the correct one and will continue to use it Look at 4.3.7