Set-Ups disscused & practised @ Nifty Futures Trading Thread.

Sunil

Well-Known Member
Besides having chartical & technical setups, one should also have a good mental setup, aptitude & right attitude towards trading.

Found this wonderful piece by Traderji himself which touched my heart:

Dear Member of Traderji.com,

I would like to use this ocassion to share some of my thoughts with you all in your quest for profits.

Two key words you often hear in trading are consistency and discipline. A winning trader makes consistent profits. Here's what that means. In contrast to seasoned traders, novice traders' equity curves goes up and down, but mostly down. The equity curves are jagged and show extreme peaks and valleys. A seasoned trader, in contrast, has a smooth, rising equity curve. That doesn't mean that a seasoned trader doesn't run "hot" and "cold." But what they don't do is allow their emotions to guide their trading. They don't impulsively abandon their trading plans, panic at the wrong moment, or make numerous trading errors. When they happen to hit upon ideal market conditions, they are able to take advantage of them, so that over the long run, they come out ahead.

How do you trade more consistently? One of the first steps is to develop clearly defined trading plans and try to stick with them. Discipline means that you learn to follow the trading signals consistently.

Trading successfully is a matter of taking advantage of chance. To take advantage of the law of large numbers, you must make many trades, and do so consistently. Ideally, your objective is to try to put on a trade with discipline, reacting effortlessly over and over again. By chance, your plan may work, or equally by chance, it may not work. If you use a sound, reliable trading strategy, however, you will be right enough times to make a profit across a series of trades.

What happens to many novice traders, though, is that they allow their emotions to take over at critical moments of trading. They may jump into the markets before they are ready because they crave a little excitement, or they may close out a trade early because they are afraid of losing money.

Even traders who have a well-devised trading plan may not follow it out of fear or greed. When this happens, a novice trader will lose money even when the market conditions favor their trading methods. They lose money when they should have been making money, and then, when the market conditions change, and are not conducive to their methods, they lose even more money.

They may occasionally hit upon those moments when everything "clicks" and make a profit, but it is usually short lived. It is vital to control emotions when trading. Don't act impulsively. Identify when you are uneasy or fearful, and take steps to reduce the fear. For some people emotion control may be as extreme as standing aside for the day. For other traders, it may mean working out regularly and using meditation or relaxation techniques to remain calm. Perhaps the best method of emotion control is to manage risk.

If you know that the outcome of a single trade can have relatively little real impact on your account balance, you won't be as worried and you'll trade more freely. Finally, don't trade beyond your skill level. If you stick with what you know initially, you will be able to build up your trading skills and confidence level.

Master traders know that they have a few foolproof weapons in their arsenal of trading methods that they can use to recoup major losses should they need to. Once you realize that you can make lost money back if you need to, you'll feel a sense of freedom. You'll know that should you experience a drawdown, you can get back in the game. And in the end, there is really nothing to worry about. Until then, however, you must practice trading conservatively until you build up the requisite skills.

The best way of doing that is to develop a trading plan and follow it. Trade with money you can afford to lose and manage risk carefully.

By building up your trading skills and developing a strong sense of discipline, you will eventually develop the ability to trade profitably across a variety of market conditions, and remain profitable over the long run.

I hope Traderji.com will help you in your quest to consistent profits.
 
L

learn2trade08

Guest
dear Sunil,
Attached is a chart demonstrating Classic bullish divergence.
In a classic bullish divergence we have the price making a lower-low along with the indicator making a higher -low.This basically is indicating that there is a possiblity of change in the immeadiate trend.An intra-day trader is basically looking for entry points at a shorter time frames once the classic bullish divergence on a longer time frame is confirmed.We can use pivots,trendline resistence's/supports/chart patterns anything which is comfortable along with an appropriate but strict stop loss...
for more on hidden divergence,please visit this site.
also just to cheer my fellow bears a bit,notice the gap-up in the chart which hasnt been filled yet.
;)
all the best.

 

arnav_rulz

Well-Known Member
Is Nifty Just Filling up all the gaps these days ?

I have now been noticing this for more than past 1 month and let me tell you... I have been very Successful in this.. even though this may later prove to be true.. but atleast for now it is working ..


Since Nifty Touched the Lows of 2200... I have noticed 1 thing that.. All the Gap up/Gap Down Openings have been Filled by the Nifty 1 day or another..

Here the Gap is difference of last days closing and the Next Day's Opening price..

Normally i think by Rule a gap is filled even if Nifty opens a gap Up/down and then comes back to atleast the previous days high/low ... But For a long time now ... it tends to atleast come back till the previous Day's Close ..(Its not necessary that it comes the next day.. But it sure fills up that gap..)

I think I May not sound very Clear here .. Cause im still fully trying to Work on it and trying to understand it ..
Still i have two charts to try and elaborate my point ..





In This Chart we can Clearly See the Circles are nothing but Gap-ups and Gap-downs being filled by nifty 1 day or another ...

To trade with These What i have experienced is that ... When any previous left Gap is filled...We can then Buy/Short the Nifty @ that time and our Stop is the Low/high of the last 60 minute candle of the of the day of which the gap is filled up..

When Nifty went down till 2500(2nd time) again.. it actually filled a previous left gap for me which had a stop around 2490 and the Low made was around 2495!!

This can be seen in various other cases as well ..But as mentioned in the chart .. only the gap of close of 5th Dec and open of 6th Dec Is left to be filled for me.. though again as mentioned .. these are really not Considered as Real Gaps caz nifty retraced back till the high of 5th Dec atleast ..


Now the next Chart is About the reason for Yesterday's Sharp Fall and then the sudden rise back..





Thus In a range-Bound and consolidating market like one we have right now .. one may use these filling of gaps for intraday purposes...
 

arnav_rulz

Well-Known Member
Spot closes above 3110 @ 3121.45 on settlement basis....
A new higher high has been recorded for EOD charts

and just to analyse:
Fut from 3085 to 3138 = 53
Call 3100 from 115 to 139 = 24
Put 3100 from 127 to 101 = 26

So, hedges cost the same...
No Sunil... The hedges dont actually cost the same ...
They are looking the similar because the time frame is very small and also the rise/fall in nifty is also not that big...

See your question was ..
what is more advisable for a long position in a scrip - selling its ATM call or buying ATM put?
Well both are advisable ... but depending on the your frame of mind ...

the Basic Thing states that if you foresee a sharp rise/fall then Buying the Put is advisable .. but if you believe there will be some consolidation then Selling the Call is better ...

But this is not enough... We should go deeper than this basic..
As For my advice ... Check out 2 things ...

1)Supports and resistances and
2)Even more Important is your Time Frame..

First Coming to Time Frame ...
A)If your time frame is 5 or less days ... Buying the Put is better Anyday especially if your far from expiry ...

This is because i am taking an assumption that in 5 days the time value of Options wont decrease..

Now why is Buying the Put better... lets take an example
Nifty is @ 3000
Put 3000 = 150
Call 3000 = 150

1)Now Taking that Nifty is same after 5 days... then after 5 days the Rates of call and put will remain the same thus there is no difference...

2)Now If after 5 days say nifty falls/rises only a small amount .. say 3100/2900...
Even now @ 3100 Call would trade somewhere around 200 whereas the Put will be somewhere around 95... So again not a big difference ..
Similarly @ 2900 Put will be 205 and call will be 100... So no difference agn.


3)BUT if there is A big move Up/Down ... Now Put will be far better ..
Say nifty = 3200/2800
@ nifty = 3200, the 3000 Call will trade at atleast 275(you lose 125) whereas even if the 3000 Put trades @ 75 then you lose only 75 , thus you save atleast 50.. And you keep loosing more(in case of call..) as nifty rises..
Even @ 2800... say your call trades @ 70 (you gain 80) whereas your Put will trade somewhere near 270(you gain 120) thus Put is better and it will earn more as Nifty falls more...

Thus IMO if your Time period is Short(even for intraday) Buying the Option is anyday better and selling the Opposite Option.


B)Now if say your Time period Is Say Larger ... Here My advise is Generally to Sell the option ONLY IF you are NOT Expecting a VERY Sharp rise/fall..

Again We will take an example and Say ... Our time frame is Expiry (for easier Calculation)
Nifty 3000
Call 3000 = 150
Put 3000 = 150

Now again the 3 same conditions...
1)Nifty is @ 3000 on expiry ... Clearly you gain 150 If you sold the call and will lose 150 if you Brought the Put ..(thus a 300 Point advantage for the call)

2)Nifty is @ 3100 on expiry.. You gain 50 from call but lose your 150 in Put ... So Again Call is better ..

3)Nifty @ 3300 .. You lose 150 in Call But you would have lost the same amount if you brought the Put So no Difference in buying/selling the call..

Thus only above 3300 and below 2700 (similar example) the Put is Better Than Call... So My advise .. Sell an Option rather than Buy an opposite Option When you have a bigger Time frame



Now another reason i say that Bigger time frame and selling in Option is better is a becaz of Combination Of both Supports and Resistance with it ..

Again Say taking the Present Senario ...
Nifty is trading @ 3100
Call = 150
Put = 150

Strong Resistance = 3250
Strong Support = 2800-2900 ?


Now When We Combine Both the Charts and Options... we will have to assume that It will take time/it will not be easy for Nifty to Break any of these Levels ..

So What should person holding a long position Do to hedge ?

Well i say SELL a CALL...


Cause say Nifty goes uptill 3250 ! BUT there is should stop pull back a bit andthen maybe resume upward journey.. And By this time The Month Usually gets Over !! And similar is the case for Nifty to Break 2800 ...

Thus After Calculating according to examples above ... It is clear that Selling the Call would have been a Much better Option than Buying a Put ..
 

arnav_rulz

Well-Known Member
Extra Info about Calls and Puts

Many People Who trade in Puts & Calls generally dont realise 1 thing...


CALL is SAME AS PUT.


Its never that puts have more premium(than calls) during a bear market and calls have more premium(than Puts) in Bull market.


Generally ppl tend to buy a stock/nifty say @ 3100 and sell its 3200 Call, Whereas what they are simply doing is Selling a naked Put of 3200 !!

Buying a Future(Y price) + selling a Call(X strike price) = Selling a Put(of X strike Price)


Similarly

Selling a Future(Y price) + Buying a Call(X strike price) = Buying a Put(of X strike Price)

Buying aFuture(Y price) + Buying a Put(X strike price) = Buying a Call(of X strike Price)


FOR EXAMPLE

**If say Nifty Future is @ 3000 and 3200 Call is @Rs 50 then 3200 Put has to be @ 250,

If Put is more than 250 then...

Sell the Put , Buy the Call & sell the Future ( and there and there @ the end the month you will 100% earn the extra amount (ie value of Put sold - 250)

**Here the Value of Put is calculted as ---> Difference of strike price of Call and Future rate (3200-3000) + Premium Received from call = 50 ie 200+50=250..
 
U

uasish

Guest
"Buying a Future(Y price) + selling a Call(X strike price) = Selling a Put(of X strike Price)"

Plz guide me,
Buying a Fut PLUS selling a Call negates each other ?
Selling a Put and buying a Fut is same direction then how in this equation both side is equal to.Though the Fut buying Price is different.
 

arnav_rulz

Well-Known Member
"Buying a Future(Y price) + selling a Call(X strike price) = Selling a Put(of X strike Price)"

Plz guide me,
Buying a Fut PLUS selling a Call negates each other ?
Selling a Put and buying a Fut is same direction then how in this equation both side is equal to.Though the Fut buying Price is different.
Buying a Future and selling a Call doesnt negate each other as we can still have unlimited losses if the Price of Future falls and overall we have Limited Profit if the Future manages to stay above a certain Level.. Which is EXACTLY What Selling a Put does.

I posted this in Nifty Futures thread... i hope this will make it more clear.



FOR EXAMPLE

**If say Nifty Future is @ 3000 and 3200 Call is @Rs 50 then 3200 Put has to be @ 250,

If Put is more than 250 then...
Sell the Put , Buy the Call & sell the Future ( and there and there @ the end the month you will 100% earn the extra amount (ie value of Put sold - 250)

**Here the Value of Put is calculted as ---> Difference of strike price of Call and Future rate (3200-3000) + Premium Received from call = 50 ie 200+50=250..
Refering the Red coloured portion,
Is it 3 jobs ?
a) Buying Call
b)Writing the Put
c)Shorting Fut
If so then is not 1 directional side kept open (for many Weeks Satyajit is trying to explain this to me but unable to fathom this kindly elaborate this further after Mkt Hrs)
Sir, First Lets See the Example that i gave...

1)We short Nifty Future trading @ 3000
2)We Buy Nifty 3200 Call @ 50
3)We Sell/Write 3200 Put @ say 250+10(that will be profit) = 260

Now If it is Completely hedged... then as i said our profit should be (10 points) regardless of where the market closes ..

Lets see... Say --->
1)Nifty Closes @3000 - a)Now we Earn nothing from the Future we shorted.
b)We lose the 50 we invested in the Call
c)We gain 260-200 = 60 from the Put we Sold.
So Overall we earn 10 points.

2)Nifty Closes @ 3500 --->a) We Lose 500 from the Future Shorted
b)We earn 300-50(premium paid) = 250 from the call
c)And again We earn 260 from the Put sold
Thus Overall we earn 10 points.

3)Nifty Closes @ 2500 -->a)Earn 500 from Future
b)Lose 50 from call brought
3)Lose 700-260 = 440 from the Put sold
Overall We again earn 10 points.


Thus it is very clear That We are Completely hedged here ... But HOW >?

Now for that lets get that to basics and take another example.
Short Nifty future @ 3000
Short Put of 3000 @ 150
Buy Call of 3000 @ 150

Now.. Lets take 1 thing at a time.

1)Short Future-->From Shorting the Future @ 3000... it is clear that any point above 3000 is our loss and below that it is our profit.

2)Short Put 3000 @ 150---> From this we can say that any point Below 2850 is our loss and any point above 2850 till 3000 is our profit therefore our maximum profit is 150.

3)Call of 3000 @ 150 --->Any point above 3150 is Profit and below it is our loss till 3000... i.e max loss = 150.


A)NOW Combine 1&2 i.e Short the Future & Short the Put.


Q. If we do only these two transactions... What will be the end result ?

A. Shorting Future @ 3000 will give us unlimited gains if Nifty falls down but due to our shorting of Put we will start losing below 2850 therefore the gains of Future will be set off from the losses of Put BELOW 2850 therefore Our Max profit = 150 (@ any level between 2850-3000)

Now above 3000 we will start loosing from the Nifty Future we Sold BUT as above 3000 we will gain the 150(we received from the Put) therefore our losses will actually start above 3150...

SO Overall the Situation is... @ a close of 3000 and below we earn 150 and as we go above 3000 we start losing one one point from the 150 and can have unlimited losses.

Doesnt this Sound familiar ? Doesnt this look As if what we have actually done is nothing but Shorted a Call of 3000 @ 150 ? Yes It does.
Shorting a Call 3000 @ 150 also have the result ie Max gains till 3000 and below = 150 and losses starts after 3150.

Thus To hegde this... We BUY a 3000 Call @ 150 And nulify/hedge our positions Completely !!

What we did was -- > (Short the Future + Short the Put) i.e = Short a Call and to hedge it completely we brought a Call.
Thus we did 3 transactions to completely hedge our positions.



Similarly in the same example we could have looked it in another way.. i.e
Shorting the Future And Buying a Call = Buying a Put... therefore to completely hedge we have Sold a Put..


*I hope it is a bit clear now and also i hope this is what you were actually asking.. hehe
 
Last edited:

rkkarnani

Well-Known Member
Buying a Future and selling a Call doesnt negate each other as we can still have unlimited losses if the Price of Future falls and overall we have Limited Profit if the Future manages to stay above a certain Level.. Which is EXACTLY What Selling a Put does.

I posted this in Nifty Futures thread... i hope this will make it more clear.







Sir, First Lets See the Example that i gave...

1)We short Nifty Future trading @ 3000
2)We Buy Nifty 3200 Call @ 50
3)We Sell/Write 3200 Put @ say 250+10(that will be profit) = 260

Now If it is Completely hedged... then as i said our profit should be (10 points) regardless of where the market closes ..

Lets see... Say --->
1)Nifty Closes @3000 - a)Now we Earn nothing from the Future we shorted.
b)We lose the 50 we invested in the Call
c)We gain 260-200 = 60 from the Put we Sold.
So Overall we earn 10 points.

2)Nifty Closes @ 3500 --->a) We Lose 500 from the Future Shorted
b)We earn 300-50(premium paid) = 250 from the call
c)And again We earn 260 from the Put sold
Thus Overall we earn 10 points.

3)Nifty Closes @ 2500 -->a)Earn 500 from Future
b)Lose 50 from call brought
3)Lose 700-260 = 440 from the Put sold
Overall We again earn 10 points.


Thus it is very clear That We are Completely hedged here ... But HOW >?

Now for that lets get that to basics and take another example.
Short Nifty future @ 3000
Short Put of 3000 @ 150
Buy Call of 3000 @ 150

Now.. Lets take 1 thing at a time.

1)Short Future-->From Shorting the Future @ 3000... it is clear that any point above 3000 is our loss and below that it is our profit.

2)Short Put 3000 @ 150---> From this we can say that any point Below 2850 is our loss and any point above 2850 till 3000 is our profit therefore our maximum profit is 150.

3)Call of 3000 @ 150 --->Any point above 3150 is Profit and below it is our loss till 3000... i.e max loss = 150.


A)NOW Combine 1&2 i.e Short the Future & Short the Put.


Q. If we do only these two transactions... What will be the end result ?

A. Shorting Future @ 3000 will give us unlimited gains if Nifty falls down but due to our shorting of Put we will start losing below 2850 therefore the gains of Future will be set off from the losses of Put BELOW 2850 therefore Our Max profit = 150 (@ any level between 2850-3000)

Now above 3000 we will start loosing from the Nifty Future we Sold BUT as above 3000 we will gain the 150(we received from the Put) therefore our losses will actually start above 3150...

SO Overall the Situation is... @ a close of 3000 and below we earn 150 and as we go above 3000 we start losing one one point from the 150 and can have unlimited losses.

Doesnt this Sound familiar ? Doesnt this look As if what we have actually done is nothing but Shorted a Call of 3000 @ 150 ? Yes It does.
Shorting a Call 3000 @ 150 also have the result ie Max gains till 3000 and below = 150 and losses starts after 3150.

Thus To hegde this... We BUY a 3000 Call @ 150 And nulify/hedge our positions Completely !!

What we did was -- > (Short the Future + Short the Put) i.e = Short a Call and to hedge it completely we brought a Call.
Thus we did 3 transactions to completely hedge our positions.



Similarly in the same example we could have looked it in another way.. i.e
Shorting the Future And Buying a Call = Buying a Put... therefore to completely hedge we have Sold a Put..


*I hope it is a bit clear now and also i hope this is what you were actually asking.. hehe
The write up is really very educative, but in real life the Rates at which we presumed we may buy or sell options do not happen. Atleast not yet in India.
I totally agree that things would work out as stated by you if we get the options at the price you have mentioned.
So very much depends on the time of the month when we are initiating these positions. The overall picture of a hedged postion (Future+option+option or any other combination)would be totally different in the first week of the derivative month fwhen compared with the same position in the 3rd or last week of the month. The premiums at times fluctuate like a pedulumin a volatile market.
 

arnav_rulz

Well-Known Member
The write up is really very educative, but in real life the Rates at which we presumed we may buy or sell options do not happen. Atleast not yet in India.
I totally agree that things would work out as stated by you if we get the options at the price you have mentioned.
So very much depends on the time of the month when we are initiating these positions. The overall picture of a hedged postion (Future+option+option or any other combination)would be totally different in the first week of the derivative month fwhen compared with the same position in the 3rd or last week of the month. The premiums at times fluctuate like a pedulumin a volatile market.

First of all i think You didnt get the Real meaning behind the write-up.
Here the rates at which i presumed we may buy/sell the Options Do not matter at all !! (Although these are the almost the exact rates we actually get in India.)

Now if you want we can change the rates too. But if we decrease the rates of Calls, we have to proportionally decrease the rates of Puts too.
Lets take another example now..

Short Nifty future @ 3000
Short Put of 3000 @ 100
Buy Call of 3000 @ 100

Well these are rates Changed ? as per your wish. But If you calculate.. it didnt make a bit of a difference. Still we remain completely hedged.

But if you change the rate(increase or decrease) of only 1, ie call or put then it will create a situation where we will always have profits(100%) if we applied a particular strategy.

Say, Nifty future @ 3000
Put of 3000 @ 100
Call of 3000 @ 110

In this Case you gain the extra 10 points(110-100) If you..
Buying a Future @ 3000 + selling a Call(3000 strike price) @ 110 and Buy the Put(3000 strike price) @ 100
You may calculate on your own that @ any closing you will gain 10 points.

Similarly if in the above example.. the rate of Call was 90 then we would have simply..
Shorted a Future @ 3000 + Brought a Call(3000 strike price) @ 90 and Sold the Put(3000 strike price) @ 100 and again the end result would have been a gain of 10 points.

I would have shown you the same thing when we take different rate of Future from the strike price as well, but then the calculation would be a bit complicating with the Same End result. If you want you can always try it on your own and if there is some problem ill obviously tell you.

If you want, you can also check it in real life trading that
If you want the rate of say, 3200 Put.. all you need is the Price of Future and the value of 3200 Call..

*The Value of Put will be = Difference of strike price of Call and Future rate {3200-3000(taking the value of future)} + Premium Received from call i.e x = 200+x(this will be rate of 3200 Put in real trading life as well..) *Obviously thr can be difference of 2-3 points..


THUS Coming Back To my Original Point, where my purpose wasn't to only tell you how to COMPLETELY hedge yourself but Also To tell you That
"There is no Real BIG Difference In Calls and Puts" Its all in our Mind !!
 

orderflow13

Well-Known Member
There is something I want 2 share, its still in experimental basis so by posting this post I am hoping to read the other side of the coin, pros n cons of my experiments so plz be free to express ur opinion friends..

First its regarding option trading using pivot points and saints flow method ( strictly positional so only hourly bars no aggressive/pure stuff here) . what I am doing is writing call when sell signal triggered and at day closing I buy call of near SAR, same with puts when buy signal triggers, operative word here is buy call at DAY CLOSING TO NEGOTIATE GAP UP AGAINST WRITTEN CALL MOVES. Ex. Suppose on hourly there is pvt crack say 3100 then we write 3100 call now say market behave as per our likings n at day closing,here comes the imp part we dnt open our naked write position to the mercy of gap ups so we buy 3200 call considering we have SAR at 3160 ( including filter) if market opens in favor of our short position we kept open our 3200 call buying position as it is till new sar established …well its very simple technique but putting it in words sounds bit complicated, as is the irony with all option strategies….
Objective – only objective is fixing the risk and so fixing the profits, so its not exactly flow method as saint sir uses flow method for capturing big trades, here we let it go big moves when move is in line next day …but.. now consider at first day we write 3100call n we brought 3200 call n next day market open gaps up but within our sar then? We sell our long call in profit n wait for market to hit our sar. If sar hit we write put as long triggered but if sar didn’t trigger we kept open our written call position … in free time I will post my charts n trades of 2 months to clear it more, I use to trade options using inbuilt indicator PARABOLIC SAR this is bit evolution and logical version of previous, meanwhile excuse me for bit confusing post
Regards Alex.
P.S. To cut the chase down when we deal with option writing, math says LIMITED PROFIT AND UNLIMITED LOSS, afterwards everything is ur choice.
 

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