Upstox - RKSV - Trade in Rs 20 Max

[trade4putuval]

Try punching in 2 different prices when the market is moving fast..... the markets in Nifty futures very frequently moves 3 to 5 points in 30 seconds, which is common time required to enter 2 different prices for trigger and price.

Now, trading even a minimum qty of 500 nifty, which is why someone would be at rksv in the first place, to save bkg, its a hit of 1500 to 2500 per order. And thats just for one order. Typical day traders execute 5 to 10 trades per day, and assuming even fast movement in only 1 of those trades, a 2500 loss per day, translates into 50,000 per month. And if it happens 2 times a day which is ABSOLUTELY common, then its a figure of 1,00,000 per month.

5 rupees in nifty futures 30 seconds is very very very common to say the least.

So, a trader who comes to rksv to save bkg, is overall, digging a deep hole for himself.

Even if he is trading ONE lot, it would come to 10,000 per month.......

All the above points look good! But all these reflect when the market goes freaky one fine day! What happens if you do the following!!! Suppose nifty goes down from 5850 to 5790! The trader is not in a position to do anything, agreed!!! Why can't he keep a stop at 5770 trigger price 5775 to protect himself from further downside? If he had placed at market, he would have exited at 5780-85-90 (a difference of Rs 10 max if he had planned to place stop 20Rs down from CMP).

So what I wanted to say is for advantage of better brokerage offered by the institution, the trader has to fine tune his trading strategies to adapt his trade to compensate for the market order deficiency in the software!!!

What we fail to look is that

• We benefit from low brokerage per trade every normal day!!
• We keep a defined stop loss based on CMP when market goes freaky!!! We still benefit from low brokerage in that freaky trade. Just imagine the kind of brokerage you would had to shell out in a higher-brokerage firm even if they had provided the benefits of market order trades!!!

I have an account with RKSV, but please do not think that I am supporting RKSV. Mostly, it is the trader who has to study the software's advantages and disadvantages and fine tune his strategies in case something goes wrong, instead of putting all the blame on the software!!! This trading is itself a very risky business, and traders who fail to understand his infrastructure, will suffer damages for sure!!!

So it is better to leave out this discussion and focus on retrieving the loss through a better trade going ahead!!! All the best!!!:thumb:

 

[DSM]

Well Putuval what you state is not correct - RKSV tweaked their software and took away the option to place market orders, which was available to users before. So your contention that one should study the software is not valid, as what I have in terms of the trading terminal is not what I signed in for.

As a trader, I am bearing the risk and the consequences of my decision. I know when to place a market order, and when to place a limit order. In a fast moving market, freaky as you say, I would still prefer to get in or out at market rather than to place a limit order and see it not get executed.

Regarding placing a defined stop-loss in the system, I trade futures and options and would rather prefer to place a mental stop-loss. A SL for a lot of 500-4,000 or 10,000 can be sniffed out by the algos who can see down the order book, so that is no-no too.

Saving brokerage is important for traders, but not if it results in loosing capital.

RKSV has stated, they will be reintroducing Market Order. This shows the problem is not with the 80% users as they claim, but a glitch in their system/software, and they will take 1-2 months to fix it. And sooner the better.

All the above points look good! But all these reflect when the market goes freaky one fine day! What happens if you do the following!!! Suppose nifty goes down from 5850 to 5790! The trader is not in a position to do anything, agreed!!! Why can't he keep a stop at 5770 trigger price 5775 to protect himself from further downside? If he had placed at market, he would have exited at 5780-85-90 (a difference of Rs 10 max if he had planned to place stop 20Rs down from CMP).

So what I wanted to say is for advantage of better brokerage offered by the institution, the trader has to fine tune his trading strategies to adapt his trade to compensate for the market order deficiency in the software!!!

What we fail to look is that

• We benefit from low brokerage per trade every normal day!!
• We keep a defined stop loss based on CMP when market goes freaky!!! We still benefit from low brokerage in that freaky trade. Just imagine the kind of brokerage you would had to shell out in a higher-brokerage firm even if they had provided the benefits of market order trades!!!

I have an account with RKSV, but please do not think that I am supporting RKSV. Mostly, it is the trader who has to study the software's advantages and disadvantages and fine tune his strategies in case something goes wrong, instead of putting all the blame on the software!!! This trading is itself a very risky business, and traders who fail to understand his infrastructure, will suffer damages for sure!!!

So it is better to leave out this discussion and focus on retrieving the loss through a better trade going ahead!!! All the best!!!:thumb:

 

[trade4putuval]

Well Putuval what you state is not correct - RKSV tweaked their software and took away the option to place market orders, which was available to users before. So your contention that one should study the software is not valid, as what I have in terms of the trading terminal is not what I signed in for.

As a trader, I am bearing the risk and the consequences of my decision. I know when to place a market order, and when to place a limit order. In a fast moving market, freaky as you say, I would still prefer to get in or out at market rather than to place a limit order and see it not get executed.

Regarding placing a defined stop-loss in the system, I trade futures and options and would rather prefer to place a mental stop-loss. A SL for a lot of 500-4,000 or 10,000 can be sniffed out by the algos who can see down the order book, so that is no-no too.

Saving brokerage is important for traders, but not if it results in loosing capital.

RKSV has stated, they will be reintroducing Market Order. This shows the problem is not with the 80% users as they claim, but a glitch in their system/software, and they will take 1-2 months to fix it. And sooner the better.

Well, maybe I missed the entire story!! So you may be right!

Correcting the definition of defined SL! I did not mean to say predefined SL orders, that you place as soon as you are in trade. What I meant is something like this ... nifty going from 5850 to 5790 in 10 mins, ok time to get out!! I place a limit order at 5775 trigger price instead of market, i.e. 5790!

I also agree with your view that placing pre-defined stop loss orders following a trade is food for algo-trading!:annoyed:

Maybe RKSV should also introduce urgent message options that they can send to their customers on mobile to inform them of changes done to the software so that the traders can take informed decisions on their trades!

 

[timepass]

...A SL for a lot of 500-4,000 or 10,000 can be sniffed out by the algos who can see down the order book, so that is no-no too.

I thought only top 5 orders were visible to the traders. Is it any different for high volume traders ?

 

[DataRam]

Well from a trader's point of view Market Orders are really indispensable. Sometimes in the heat of the circumstances to place Limit Orders can be a real headache. This I am saying as I have experienced the limitations of Limit Order with unnecessary losses which could otherwise would have been avoided with the market order. I am also trading with RKSV and would really like to appeal for opening up the Market Order feature again.

 

[RKSV]

Well from a trader's point of view Market Orders are really indispensable. Sometimes in the heat of the circumstances to place Limit Orders can be a real headache. This I am saying as I have experienced the limitations of Limit Order with unnecessary losses which could otherwise would have been avoided with the market order. I am also trading with RKSV and would really like to appeal for opening up the Market Order feature again.

Hi guys,

Market orders are coming back. Yes, we can use limit orders with lower price bands or upper bands to imitate market orders, but we are pushing for full market orders in 1-2 months with the next version.

Regarding SL orders and algos seeing your orders -- that does not happen. Exchange doesn't publish stop loss orders to other participants so others are not aware of the SL orders sitting on the book. Hope that helps!

 

[DSM]

I beleive so. Quote from somewhere else :

'It's certainly true on the forex side that some groups can see a representative sample of the stop orders. Those privileged groups are the large retail shops and technology providers.

I've seen the whole book before. It makes your jaw drop when you see how densely all the stop orders cluster. No wonder retail loses all the time'

I thought only top 5 orders were visible to the traders. Is it any different for high volume traders ?

 

[sumosanammain]

Hi guys,

Market orders are coming back. Yes, we can use limit orders with lower price bands or upper bands to imitate market orders, but we are pushing for full market orders in 1-2 months with the next version.

Regarding SL orders and algos seeing your orders -- that does not happen. Exchange doesn't publish stop loss orders to other participants so others are not aware of the SL orders sitting on the book. Hope that helps!

So, after 2 months you dont care about the losses that you right now feel that we would make if market orders were available.

So, you love your customers only for the next one or two months, and after that , as said by you, you will open them up for the so called dangers of market orders.

WHen people started trading with you, market orders were there. Now they arent. Maybe next week you will take 100 % margin of 280000 per Nifty lot, as you may feel that trading on margins is risky for your beloved clients.

 

[soft_trader]

Regarding SL orders and algos seeing your orders -- that does not happen. Exchange doesn't publish stop loss orders to other participants so others are not aware of the SL orders sitting on the book. Hope that helps!

OK. Thanks for the info.

Could you also clarify whether any HNI/FII/Institutions or any big fishes has the privilege of viewing more than 5 orders in the order book?

 

[Smart_trade]

OK. Thanks for the info.

Could you also clarify whether any HNI/FII/Institutions or any big fishes has the privilege of viewing more than 5 orders in the order book?

I dont think HNI/FII/Institutions and big fishes have any extra previlege. I have seen some software which analyses the order flow and flashes a pop up on the screen indicating large amount of buying/selling is coming in some counter. But this information is available to anyone who is seeing the buy/sell quotes, only thing is in the software the computer does the work and sends alert. But I doubt whether FIIs and Institutions trade on this. I have seen some high value scalpers using this software.

We retail traders have an advantage that we can trade at the optimum points as per our charts and we can move/reverse quickly...and that is our biggest edge on the larger guys as they cannot move fast.

Smart_trade