Going With The 60min Flow!!!

[Saint]

(Though this post is in response to VVVV 's post it is not addressed to him alone!!!)

Thanks a lot for a detailed explanation!!! Please do not treat this post as if I want to argue....I wish to make the system as less dependent on my personal views as possible!!!
Vikram, I know that i will get an earlier signal in 30 minutes. My effort is to remove the "I" from my decisions!!! And also to keep the system simple!!! Now the first question comes :
How much profit is good profit!!!
How far a SL is "far off"!!!

Presupposing a particular Profit is a great profit and therefore has to be protected is bringing the "I" into the trade,as is correctly put forward by you,my wise friend.......and that is not the purpose of the 30min tweak.

In both the situations I have to decide which I wish to dispense with. So the easiest way out of avoiding the use of "I" here is to be with the flow!!!
But the rules suggested by Saint recommend that we use a 30 min. chart for reversal if this or this is the situation!!
Vikram I am still not been able to fully comprehend the exact "B]this or this [/B]" situation recommended by Saint!!! As i mentioned in my earlier post, the matter is not vague but also not crystal clear!!! Saint has done his best to explain it N number of times, seems I am unable to shed my preconceived notions so not entering my thick head!!! Seems I have some "unlearning" to do!!!!

Therefore, had classified the 2 different types of mindsets........both are correct and can see their own preference as crystal clear,but not the other variation........therefore the need to classify as 2 different types.

It is done so that a great mind like yours,RK,does not need to "unlearn" anything.......you are already seeing the Pure Flow crystal clear.Follow that strategy consistently to great profits.Finally,the greater your profits are is dependant on how much you enter with and your adds......the Pure Flow Traders,by their patience,and serenity,will be able to consistently blast through the Roof,and make great wealth.

So,please do not try to change...........there is the other more aggressive group,but that doesn't mean you have to change strategy........that chart that you posted shows a Perfect Pure Trade,and as mentioned before,a fantastic trade............very proud,very very proud,although you are much older than I am.

So what do I do, as mentioned by you , I decide on the tweaks and trade them!!! But still my inclination is to understand the "rules" as set by Saint and the reason for this being, very frankly, the rules derived by Saint, who has a trading experience of the System of around more than a couple of years, and mine is just around 2 months!!! Why would I not wish to use something much better than mine!!!
I am happy that I earned in last 2 months of trades but there always remained an iota of doubt about the trades being done though I had back tested for more than 15 months with not a single derivative month giving loss. To be candid the profits analysed or even in real trades profits earned were no where near what Saint had achieved, but would hasten to add : "Profits were handsome by any standards, to say the least."
Question is then why do I need to seek guidance for the adds or this 30 min. Pivot etc. etc. Every system has its drawdowns, this shall also have its , may be small may be big, time shall tell!!! But to counter the drawdowns one must extract the 'full value' of the system. After all when a system is traded one looks at the no. of winners , loosers, size if wins, size of losses etc. If I win big loose small so far so good!! But if I win small and loose small or win big and loose big the R/R ratio is tossed out of proportion in the long run!!! And I am convinced that my tweaks though working fine have not been able to achieve what was desired!!!! Testing time would come when the market turns sideways!!!! I may still earn but net net but with adverse R/R ratio!!!



No offence was meant or intended!!!! If any I apologise!!!
All the best!!!
R K Karnani

Trying to put up something on the Intraday Thread,after which I will crystallise the rules for the Pure Flow Trader and the Aggressive Flow Trader separately.

As always,great post from yourself.

Thanks,
Saint

 

[rakeshluthra430]

Rakesh,

Great post.....but why delete it?

Thanks.

Saint

Ooopps...you read it Saint?? Deleted as I felt it may not clear confusions for ones who need 'specific, clear cut and definite' answers. Since you found it good...I am re-posting it. Here it goes: (This was in response to Karnani Sir's post where he said about not being clear about the 30 min tfs).

Hmmm....I think this is a very common problem faced by most of us. This reminds me of an exercise we used to do in our para-commando days....an exercise of coming out of deep mud. The harder we tried, the deeper we went into the mud. But the solution was very easy......same is the case here.

Now dont get me wrong....I am myself learning and not an expert on the 'tweaky' scenario when we switch the tf of our charts to 30 mins. But personally I use the 30 min charts only when the markets have had a considerable run in a particular direction and/or stops on the 60 min charts are too far.

The above didnt sound profound???? Well it isnt...

the problem here is not about finding a 'complete' solution to this 30-min thing, the problem is about how we get this monkey off our backs...remembering it only when we have a large unprotected profit...

So what is the crux of the above??? Just remove 30 min from your rear-view mirror, replace it with the overall picture of the market. That itself will make it clear when 30 min shd be coming to picture. The good thing is.....we can completely forget that there is a 30 min tf also.....as it comes into picture in just 10-15% of our trades. So instead of remembering the 30 min all the way...and then thinking about when not to use is, do this....Forget the 30 min completely.....and remember it if and only if you have a large unprotected profit (meaning deeper stops).

As you yourself have said many times...gaining confidence in using a system is more important than knowing the system absolutely correct. And yes...with time we can only improve.

I hope I have not added to the confusion.If yes, let me know and I will delete this post pronto.

Thanks,
Rakesh

 

[Saint]

i have compiled all the rules of this thread in a pdf format & uploaded it at the following link.

link : http://www.4 s h a r e d.c o m/file/63817131/b7710b69/60_MIN_FLOW_TRADE.html

Thanks Vikram......

Saint

 

[Saint]

Ooopps...you read it Saint?? Deleted as I felt it may not clear confusions for ones who need 'specific, clear cut and definite' answers. Since you found it good...I am re-posting it. Here it goes: (This was in response to Karnani Sir's post where he said about not being clear about the 30 min tfs).

Hmmm....I think this is a very common problem faced by most of us. This reminds me of an exercise we used to do in our para-commando days....an exercise of coming out of deep mud. The harder we tried, the deeper we went into the mud. But the solution was very easy......same is the case here.

Now dont get me wrong....I am myself learning and not an expert on the 'tweaky' scenario when we switch the tf of our charts to 30 mins. But personally I use the 30 min charts only when the markets have had a considerable run in a particular direction and/or stops on the 60 min charts are too far.

Now right again.......this is the more aggressive group talking,by the way.But as posted yesterday,the Aggressive Group is as Pure as the Pure Group till gap ups and vertical moves,etc happen......only then do this particular group turn aggressive,start looking at 30min charts,etc.

The above didnt sound profound???? Well it isnt...

the problem here is not about finding a 'complete' solution to this 30-min thing, the problem is about how we get this monkey off our backs...remembering it only when we have a large unprotected profit...

So what is the crux of the above??? Just remove 30 min from your rear-view mirror, replace it with the overall picture of the market. That itself will make it clear when 30 min shd be coming to picture. The good thing is.....we can completely forget that there is a 30 min tf also.....as it comes into picture in just 10-15% of our trades. So instead of remembering the 30 min all the way...and then thinking about when not to use is, do this....Forget the 30 min completely.....and remember it if and only if you have a large unprotected profit (meaning deeper stops).

Yep....we are 60min Flow Traders,not 30min Flow......we therefore look only at the 60min charts till a particular scenario occurs.......then and then only do we start looking at the 30 as well.By "we",I mean the Agressive Group.......

As you yourself have said many times...gaining confidence in using a system is more important than knowing the system absolutely correct. And yes...with time we can only improve.

I hope I have not added to the confusion.If yes, let me know and I will delete this post pronto.

Thanks,
Rakesh

Thanks Rakesh.........importantly,whichever strategy you employ,stick to it.Consistently.Regularly.Rigidly.Great success will be yours.Problem comes when you shift between Pure and Aggressive in one trade.........shall put up the rules for each soon.

Saint

 

[ruchi_gupta]

Removing I from trade means making system mechanical? add saints roule in a software,feed the data of 15 point room something, risk persentage... and we jet set go... I havent seen any succesfull mechanical system yet in my last ten years of trading,or heard any existed, secretly/unsecretly from my fore fore grandfathers, be it forex, equity, commodity, indian market or NYSE , CBOT ...and what here is going on is unknowingly 60 min. flow becoming a mechanical system,all following without intent of developing there self I . Every sucessfull trader has his/her developed I, as saint has his, and when he use it according to situation guys naming so called 'tweaks' and trying to make a mechanical roule about tweaks.Tweaks are solely a art it cant be mechanical and no any roules can set.Its your shere experiance and ability to react to the situation.
Big falls mostly are Black Swan effects, market jumps several points away in a minute. Servival instinct of a good trader keep him/her afloat.That instinct is your I
p.s. I must add i am not a genius telling all this, and nor i targeting some one, its for everybodys good.But felt like writng to save one of a 'Genius's' flow method.Be it simple for Saints sake.

 

[vinst]

current NF long trade in progress

tanew,
thanks a lot for putting up the current NF trade. m4u used to do this regularly. You have improved upon that by including the reason behind the trade, SL and SL movement.
I appreciate it very much. It would be great if it can be done regularly.

regards,
vin

 

[vinst]

Smart_trader,

I sent you a pm.
regards,
vin

 

[vinst]

As of now my records of sept 2008 show that we have 1160 points in profit of NF trades (current trade not counted). Does anyone else have a figure? Just in case i need to change my record.
Hurray to Saint !

regards,vin

 

[rh6996]

Removing I from trade means making system mechanical? add saints roule in a software,feed the data of 15 point room something, risk persentage... and we jet set go... I havent seen any succesfull mechanical system yet in my last ten years of trading,or heard any existed, secretly/unsecretly from my fore fore grandfathers, be it forex, equity, commodity, indian market or NYSE , CBOT ...and what here is going on is unknowingly 60 min. flow becoming a mechanical system,all following without intent of developing there self I . Every sucessfull trader has his/her developed I, as saint has his, and when he use it according to situation guys naming so called 'tweaks' and trying to make a mechanical roule about tweaks.Tweaks are solely a art it cant be mechanical and no any roules can set.Its your shere experiance and ability to react to the situation.
Big falls mostly are Black Swan effects, market jumps several points away in a minute. Servival instinct of a good trader keep him/her afloat.That instinct is your I
p.s. I must add i am not a genius telling all this, and nor i targeting some one, its for everybodys good.But felt like writng to save one of a 'Genius's' flow method.Be it simple for Saints sake.

The "I" that is being developed here is the "eye" of the trader to spot the Pivots!!!!
I may have understood your post wrongly but cannot agree at few places to what you have written.
"Tweaks" are just a minor change in trading rules but that just does not take bring in the "I", becoz the "I" was out the moment the tweaking was included in the set of rules to be traded and followed with discipline but without using the 'discretion' that is w/o the "I" as to where to use the tweak and where not to!!!
As told by a member here to me by PM : We do not use the 'instincts' we do not struggle with the market , we do not even try to predict the market movement, we only leave ourselves totally free to be carried with the markets 'flow' every hour!!! What ultimately counts is the end result!!!
Cheers!!!

 

[rh6996]

Presupposing a particular Profit is a great profit and therefore has to be protected is bringing the "I" into the trade,as is correctly put forward by you,my wise friend.......and that is not the purpose of the 30min tweak.



Therefore, had classified the 2 different types of mindsets........both are correct and can see their own preference as crystal clear,but not the other variation........therefore the need to classify as 2 different types.

It is done so that a great mind like yours,RK,does not need to "unlearn" anything.......you are already seeing the Pure Flow crystal clear.Follow that strategy consistently to great profits.Finally,the greater your profits are is dependant on how much you enter with and your adds......the Pure Flow Traders,by their patience,and serenity,will be able to consistently blast through the Roof,and make great wealth.

So,please do not try to change...........there is the other more aggressive group,but that doesn't mean you have to change strategy........that chart that you posted shows a Perfect Pure Trade,and as mentioned before,a fantastic trade............very proud,very very proud,although you are much older than I am.



Trying to put up something on the Intraday Thread,after which I will crystallise the rules for the Pure Flow Trader and the Aggressive Flow Trader separately.

As always,great post from yourself.

Thanks,
Saint

Saint, Have mostly understood what you have written about pure and aggressive traders!!! If a pure trader like Rkk or Rakesh or Prabhjit or Satya (I am one too though do not post much now a days) wants to know in most unambiguous terms when to use a 30 minutes pivot what would your reply be?
In plain simple words, Saint do post whenever possible a simple rule that can be understood easily about use of 30 min. TF!!!