Going with the Intraday Mini-Flow!!

[beethoven]

Saint, Please see my post no. 2110 on page 211. Many people took that trade.
Thank you very much
Bee

 

[Saint]

RKKarnani in intraday all pivots are to be considered - there are no minor or major pivots as in 60 min flow.

Beethoven,there are always major and minor pivots.......but yes,we take them all over here.It is not about visually obvious,etc....all pivots.But importantly,they have to be a pivot first.

This was discussed over the weekend in one case study of Jun 4, 2008 trades wherein Saint had indicated all pivots to be considered on 30 min chart (first priority) and if no pivots are visible then go down to 20 or 15 minutes.

Correct grasp of things.

Now unfortunately this is a very small pivot which was formed on 11:25 (before sun outage) bar on 15 min the high of this was 3699 as per my chart (which I am not able to copy and upload am not that tech savvy but will figure out a way later as till now had no need to do so).

This Sun outagae can be a bit of a bother for those who are not exitting pre-break and getting back in post -break......but another couple of days is all there is to it.

I know what you are looking at....it's a small pivot,but don't forget we are not supposed to be looking at the 15min charts at that point of time.

We had that 4 bar move and we already had a look in at the 15 min charts and spotted a pivot.We brought the stops down to 3736 + 7=3743.Then we got the Sun Outage.........I hope you are with me on this.We are very,very reluctant to go gung-ho and come between the trend......and yet,we have that 4 bar rule to keep us safe in case of a reversal.We got that 4 bar down,we look at the 15min,spot a pivot,move our stops down to 3743 and then go for a coffee break during the outage.We are not to overanalyse each and every pivot.......we have the 30,60 all going down.Today is one of those good days where one doesn't do much but yawn and take sips of coffee.The trade is making profits for us......our job is to prevent us from interfering the hard work NF was doing for us.

It is unfortunate, maybe I have over analyzed. But somehow in my quest to take out the subjectivity in reading the situation I may have committed this error.

I have noticed something in the 60min Flow thread and this one.......where one does not see something clearly,the words subjective is immediately brought forth.........yes,profit taking has some subjectivity.But other than that,we should all be ,like robots,doing the same thing.Not doing so means there is something more to studied,something more to be acquired,.......let us not wish it away by words like "subjective".

But I still do not see where. The eye says a pivot was formed on 15 but not on 20 and 30.

Nothing wrong with the Eye then........stops were brought down too fast on a smaller time frame,when it should not have......nothing wrong with the eye,my friend,you are seeing things clearly.

In intraday, we do take position opposite of 60 min flow so that consideration was not there when I brought down the SAR.

Yes,we do go right opposite to our 60min Flow Trade Positions......

Saint has said something about volumes while looking at the pivots guess that is at a higher level of skill, which I have not reached yet. Request Saint to guide us here as many of us made this move error or not, remains to be examined and analysed. Thanks for responding to my post.
Bee

We will get to basic stuff on volumes a bit later after we get this correct.

Saint

 

[Saint]

Feeling Lucky Today.

Shorted Minifty @ 3685, SL 3744 ( Risk 59 points)
Covered 3685 - 60 = 3625.

Normally I see only 30/20 Min Charts.

May be that saved me for the day.

Cheers

Great going,my friend.......same avg.cover price as well.

Saint

 

[Saint]

My question First Saint please!!

Im soo greedy....members pardon me just for today

MJ-

Ooops.....where is your question,MJ?

Saint

 

[Smart_trade]

Ok,let me go first.Saint,my data is not ok today,some errors but let me put it why I reversed at 3699+7=3706.


Mkt made 4 down bars on 30,and after 12=30 when it started coming up,there was a long tail doji on 60.There was a tiny pivot on 15 already in place and that gave me impression that all time frames are saying the same thing.Also I remember your answer to my querry on 4 th June chart where I could not see the pivot correctly it was a reversal on 15 where we reversed and I that time could not understand that reversal.That time it was not even a pivot on 15 but only 3 bars sideways movement on 15.

All the above weighed heavily on my mind otherwise I normally dont act on 15 min pivots.

I am unable to figureout where I went wrong.

Regards


Smart_trade

 

[kapil123]

Ooops.....where is your question,MJ?

Saint

lol.. I think you have already answered all the questions, before anybody could ask

 

[musicjunkie]

Here
........

Okay Saint,
So we trade the 30min ALL the way
we get 4 bars in our direction and we use 2 bar stop.

Before we use 2 bar stop we check 15/20min for a pivot, pivots have priority over 2 bar.

other than this where else do we use the 15/20min? If today the pivot was a very clear cut one and 4 bars in a row wouldn't have occured would you have reversed Saint?

answer post market.
Regards,
MJ-

 

[pakatil]

Great going,my friend.......same avg.cover price as well.

Saint

Dear Saint,

Thank You very much for the kind word.

My Day is made. Doubled with Elation. First Market Rewards and then Saint crowns it with a pat.

Cheers

 

[Saint]

Okay Saint,
So we trade the 30min ALL the way
we get 4 bars in our direction and we use 2 bar stop.

Before we use 2 bar stop we check 15/20min for a pivot, pivots have priority over 2 bar.

other than this where else do we use the 15/20min? If today the pivot was a very clear cut one and 4 bars in a row wouldn't have occured would you have reversed Saint?

answer post market.
Regards,
MJ-

Presuming that 4 bar did not happen......our stops are at the high of the day + room.

MJ,there is a reason why all 3 timeframes are to be looked at........you are already seeing things well.So not that tough....But it is going to be tough to explain to someone who is just starting on the learning curve.

Here goes.....have a look at the 19th Sept,2008.

BAR 1:H 4230,L 4178 after a big gap up..........hmmm,wonder if this is going to be one of those gap up and crash days.Yummy!Looking to short below 4164.

BAR 2:Short at 4164 triggerred.Low of 4151.

BAR 3:Narrow range bar......no problem,one does expect price to rest before continuing in its preexisting trend......Cool!Nothing to worry about......Now where is my cup of coffee?

BAR 4:Taking out the high of the previous bar......our stops at the high of the day +room.....nothing to worry about.But hmmm,there is a pivot break to the up on the 15 at 4180......Okay,all eyes on the 30 and 60....the 15 should start to fail and the preexisting trend should continue.....Another sip of coffee,but this time more tentative,more cautious,all eyes and mind on the charts,nothing else exists.

BAR 5:Another sideways move on the 30.......forget that cup of coffee now.....are we getting a reversal here?The 30 has a move up and a sideways bar,the 60 setting up a reversal candle,nice bullish rounding formation on the 20,the 15 is already in a mini-uptrend having broken that pivot high......Allow this bar to finish.....Finishes on 4188.Plan to reverse at 4195.

BAR 6:4195 longs triggerred......and a blast off....now where is that cup of coffee?All's well in the land of trading again.



Yes,we did get the reversal......but there was no reason to take that pivot break on the 15 at 4180.......why?We haven't gotten a 4 bar rule trigger,we don't have a sideways move on the 30 to look at the 15,so would we reverse?Nope........because we are in effect trading the 30min along with the other 2. That first break on the 15,and a move past 4180 was still bearish on 30,60...... only when it all fell in line did we trigger an uptrend.

Do get back to me if something's not clear.

Saint

 

[rkkarnani]

RKKarnani – in intraday all pivots are to be considered - there are no minor or major pivots as in 60 min flow. This was discussed over the weekend in one case study of Jun 4, 2008 trades wherein Saint had indicated all pivots to be considered on 30 min chart (first priority) and if no pivots are visible then go down to 20 or 15 minutes. Now unfortunately this is a very small pivot which was formed on 11:25 (before sun outage) bar on 15 min the high of this was 3699 as per my chart (which I am not able to copy and upload – am not that tech savvy – but will figure out a way later as till now had no need to do so). Now this high was taken out in 13:15 bar marginally by 3707. My SAR was at 3699+7=3706. So there was no hurry to move the SAR down nor was it a question of 10 paisa save. This is my situation. It is unfortunate, maybe I have over analyzed. But somehow in my quest to take out the subjectivity in reading the situation I may have committed this error. But I still do not see where. The eye says a pivot was formed on 15 but not on 20 and 30. In intraday, we do take position opposite of 60 min flow so that consideration was not there when I brought down the SAR. Saint has said something about volumes while looking at the pivots – guess that is at a higher level of skill, which I have not reached yet. Request Saint to guide us here as many of us made this move – error or not, remains to be examined and analysed. Thanks for responding to my post.
Bee

Hi Bee!!! Its really an excellent thing to do : "my quest to take out the subjectivity in reading the situation". I fully agree with you on this count.
Yes, we do take position opposite of 60 minutes but once we are in the trade we do take guidance of the 60 min. to get a wider picture....
About the 10 paise save, it was just an example that this 10 paise saves at times a big loss!!! It was a thing I have been using and had posted earlier too , just repeated that as today was such a day!!!
Agreed that we use all pivots here but the pivot we see on 15 TF is an excuse of a PH!!!! Yes going mechanically u are probably correct in your assessment but todays trade may change the way you look at the very very small ones!! As you have yourself noted that there was no Pivot in 20 minutes and the PH that was used as an SAR was a candle formed in just 10 minutes!!!
It should not have been considered as SAR till further confirmation!!!
I am not sure about the rule of reversal due to 4 BARS lower lows and reversing above 2 bars , this apart I feel it was an error to consider the 11.30 AM , 15 min. TF candle as SAR!!!
I would not hesitate to add that had the Market turned after your Reversal level, may be we would not have looked the situation so closely and might have missed a lot of inputs from Saint and others....and I consider it as a preparation for trading Bigger lot sizes!!!!
Thanx!!!!