Going with the Intraday Mini-Flow!!

[ratan jain]

Nah....no magic involved here.


This is akin to a doctor who came to the conclusion that Medicine A works best for hypertension,and then prescribes that to all cases of hypertension.Not that easy.......different ages,different medicines.Hypertension with cardiac disease,another medicine.Hypertension with renal disease ,another one.With Diabetes,yet another one.

Saint

What would u suggest for a hyperensive trader who has just realised that the miniflow system is better than what he could have ever even thought of?

 

[ratan jain]

And yes, a BIG THANKS also goes out to people who have helped me via private messaging.

This place is a good place to be.... whats the rate per sq ft at traderji complex?

 

[Saint]

What would u suggest for a hypertensive trader who has just realised that the miniflow system is better than what he could have ever even thought of?

The MiniFlow Method.

Saint

 

[TFL]

Thanks for the answer, Saint.

Now another stupid question
You mentioned confirmation from a higher time frame...
Please Please Please Please Please Please for my benefit of this eager learner, please please please please explain this concept about when the pivot is considered as a confirmed according to higher time frame.

Ratan jain,

Our Saint sir will be pleased with our 1 please itself...
If you give this much please he may get into hallucination...

Conformation from higher time frame means,
Say we have seen a pivot low or pivot high or anything like that in a time frame of 15 Min, then higher time frame confirmation mean...basically we need to see that pivot low /high or anything that supports the pivot lows or highs in the higher time frames such as 20min, 30 min or even in 60 min.

See the chart.
Here the Pivot low is formed in 15 min and also it is confirmed with 20 min.

More over...even if we get a pivot in 15 and get another things like breakout bar or so which is supporting the pivot we see in 15m we can call it as higher time frame confirmation.

Less time to explain in detail now...had to go out...

Hari.

 

[vpsarathy]

Stop looking at your hands and price charts at the same time,my friend.......What is taught in Kindergarten,will not be the same thing that is taught in Std 6......cannot apologise for that.

Saint

Saint,

Thanks for the insult.

In the past whenever I raised this question no one would answer because the seniors thought it was below their dignity and the rest didnot have any answer. All they would say is read "teach a man how to fish" again. These cronies donot know that you have not explained this problem there. So I deleted my questions. Today, I even IMed some people for the answer but none of them knew.

I thought at least you will explain but what I recd is an insult. I am sure many cronies will pounce on me now for saying so. The same chaps who didnot bother to clarify when I requested help after you insulted me. One of the cronies even posted something saying you were right in your reply( read insult). All donot have same "skills" nor every one is gifted with same no of grey cells. I belong to the slower category. I am not allowed to ask questions because none will be replied except by three or four people who I hold in high regard. All that I understood here is that we have many people who want to make money at any cost not bothering about anyone else. They will lick your boots as long as it suits them. Most importantly they have no respect for those who are senior to them by decades.

The world is no different where ever you go.

I have no grudges against you. You have done enough for people. I appreciate everything you have done. But it takes one wrong act to dent the good you have done. Please be careful. As you rightly said -- "cannot apologise for that--", I donot expect any apologies. At 60, I have out grown that stage. Pl donot reply to this post. I will indeed appreciate if others too donot reply as it doesnot concern them. They need not poke their nose now.

vps

 

[rajendrani]

Hi, Do post when ever free your reason for entering the SBI at 1280, as I am tracking it on paper would like to have your input.
Thanks.

sbin at 5 min bar had a high of 1270 so add filter of 10 to it and entered long at 1080.

Karnanai Sir, you are pulling my legs as to have my input.

Thanks,
rajendrani

 

[musicjunkie]

Nah....no magic involved here.

Actually doing the same thing for the same scenario again and again........but the difficulty to the newer person is that there are multiple scenarios.

This is akin to a doctor who came to the conclusion that Medicine A works best for hypertension,and then prescribes that to all cases of hypertension.Not that easy.......different ages,different medicines.Hypertension with cardiac disease,another medicine.Hypertension with renal disease ,another one.With Diabetes,yet another one.

Different scenarios,different ways to tackle it.......but still,there is a set pattern to it.That can be shared to another.That can be learnt by another and utilised to great advantage.

So,most importantly,before we proceed in answering your doubt,remove the thought that Saint has some great understanding.Nothing spectacular or fantastic,out of the world stuff .........there is still a repetitive action,but seeming difference is because of many many scenarios.

Saint

That sounds great!
Presumptions out...listening intently now

Its amazing how people can completely overlook simple things, im sure I will feel that way once I look at last few Weeks's charts with your explanation next to it.

Also, Saint, I add at the break of the 3rd bar, meaning,
long entry @ 2nd bar
2nd bar high + room is my 1st add. Its being followed by many here, wanted to know your opinion on this (don't remember if this was part of the system you described, I remember you saying only add on break of pivots)

Thanks again Saint!
Regards,
MJ-

 

[Sunil]

it is indeed frustrating when every one calls something a pivot when it does not follow the hand rule. i am unable to diatinguish pivots and non-pivots. saint says go by the eye. What should the eye see? I am unable to follow. There are no clues to this even in teach a man to fish...

stop looking at your hands and price charts at the same time,my friend.............What is taught in Kindergarten,will not be the same thing that is taught in Std 6......

Saint

this is textbook stuff:

what is a pivot:
taking an example of our three fingers for three chartical bars...
Ring, middle, index... Face it towards yourself (forming a w)... Check out the middle finger... Its high is higher than the other two fingers' highs...
such a middle bar becomes a pivot, and is to be used for adding to longs, or as sar for shorts WE CALL IT THE PIVOT HIGH

now, invert your hand, and the fingers should face you forming an m...
Again, check out the middle finger... Its low is lower than the other two fingers' lows...
such a middle bar becomes a pivot, and is to be used as adding to shorts, or as sar for longs... WE CALL IT THE PIVOT LOW

so, we wait till the third bar is completed to decide whether the previous bar is a pivot or not by comparing the 3 full formed bars....


This is the 30 min chart of 8th October, where I found most of the concepts in action:

First, let us identify "pivot" from this chart (as explained above)

PIVOT LOW BARS - 5, 8, 11
PIVOT HIGH BARS - 6, 10

Now, after learning the basics, we have to graduate to higher levels, and try to apply them in REAL TRADING LIFE in REALTIME TRADING...
Identification of a pivot high or low is very easy... even a KG student will be able to do it.
Now, for our flow method, we have to IDENTIFY THOSE PIVOT HIGHS/LOWS WHICH CAN ACT AS REVERSAL OF THE "FLOW" OF NIFTY MOVEMENT.

Along with Saint sir's attempts to make us understand the concepts, few others too have carried the torch of making this method understandable to newcomers...

I had made some humble attempts in Alex's thread too (a sister of this thread)...

I think u had read them too, as I can see ur posts there:

As apparent from chart, we are in short position as 15/30 min Bar 1 broke down. Stop was at High of this Bar 1 + room.

Till 11:00 nothing happened - no pivots formed, no LL movement...
Then 15 min Bar 7 made an attempt to cross High of Bar 1 + room, but it failed. So, our shorts continue. After 15min 8th bar / 30min 5th bar, we shift our SAR to the high + room of 15min 7th bar / 30min 4th bar.

NF goes down further, and also reach our initial part-profit booking level / add level (taken subjectively as per one's comfort).

15min Bar 10 & 30min Bar 6 are good WRBs in favour of our position.
Now, let's look ONLY at 15min chart now...Look at Bars 11-14...
We have a pivot in Bar 12, but should we take it as a reversal pivot???

Now, let's have a look at 20min, 30min & 60 min charts (remember, this is 30min flow method - 15/20min is only to spot reversal pivots & 60 mins is for confirmation overall)

NO SUCH PIVOT FORMATION IN 20MIN CHART.
NO PIVOT IN 30MIN CHART. 30MIN WRB 6'S HIGH IS NOT NEGATED...
SAME CASE WITH CORRESPONDING 60MIN BAR 3...

So, we do not consider 15min Bar 12 as reversal pivot and stick with SAR as high of Bar 10+room.


PS: I have purposely not posted the complete chart, but just for info - if Bar12 would have been taken as SAR, then it would have led to losses in reality.
It could have resulted in good upmove too, but safe & reasonable level to SAR would be to take out those corresponding 30min & 60min WRB highs. Sometimes, it is advisable not to jump on the gun quickly.








Deja vu of 3/11/08

Posting chart of 5/11/08 with similar situation:

this is the 30min flow method, with an eye on 60 min as overall reference
we come down to 15/20 if we dont have any pivots in 30

not all pivots in 15/20 are "reversal" pivots... we have to confirm its importance with 30/60 chart...

in 15/20 we have a pivot high at 3133
let's see 30min - 5 completed sideway bars, none threatening the high of the 1st bar (with high 3145.50)
in 60, it's also apparent that reversal only on break of that WRB with high 3145.50

so, my SAR is 3145.50+7

we are looking for a reversal of the flow; not scalping longs

So, even till the end of Bar 15 in 15min chart, the SAR remains fixed at high+room of Bar6(15min) / Bar4(30min) / Bar 3(60min)
ie 3145.5+7

 

[no1lives4ever]

this is textbook stuff:



Now, after learning the basics, we have to graduate to higher levels, and try to apply them in REAL TRADING LIFE in REALTIME TRADING...
Identification of a pivot high or low is very easy... even a KG student will be able to do it.
Now, for our flow method, we have to IDENTIFY THOSE PIVOT HIGHS/LOWS WHICH CAN ACT AS REVERSAL OF THE "FLOW" OF NIFTY MOVEMENT.

Along with Saint sir's attempts to make us understand the concepts, few others too have carried the torch of making this method understandable to newcomers...

I had made some humble attempts in Alex's thread too (a sister of this thread)...

I think u had read them too, as I can see ur posts there:

As apparent from chart, we are in short position as 15/30 min Bar 1 broke down. Stop was at High of this Bar 1 + room.

Till 11:00 nothing happened - no pivots formed, no LL movement...
Then 15 min Bar 7 made an attempt to cross High of Bar 1 + room, but it failed. So, our shorts continue. After 15min 8th bar / 30min 5th bar, we shift our SAR to the high + room of 15min 7th bar / 30min 4th bar.

NF goes down further, and also reach our initial part-profit booking level / add level (taken subjectively as per one's comfort).

15min Bar 10 & 30min Bar 6 are good WRBs in favour of our position.
Now, let's look ONLY at 15min chart now...Look at Bars 11-14...
We have a pivot in Bar 12, but should we take it as a reversal pivot???

Now, let's have a look at 20min, 30min & 60 min charts (remember, this is 30min flow method - 15/20min is only to spot reversal pivots & 60 mins is for confirmation overall)

NO SUCH PIVOT FORMATION IN 20MIN CHART.
NO PIVOT IN 30MIN CHART. 30MIN WRB 6'S HIGH IS NOT NEGATED...
SAME CASE WITH CORRESPONDING 60MIN BAR 3...

So, we do not consider 15min Bar 12 as reversal pivot and stick with SAR as high of Bar 10+room.


PS: I have purposely not posted the complete chart, but just for info - if Bar12 would have been taken as SAR, then it would have led to losses in reality.
It could have resulted in good upmove too, but safe & reasonable level to SAR would be to take out those corresponding 30min & 60min WRB highs. Sometimes, it is advisable not to jump on the gun quickly.








Deja vu of 3/11/08

Posting chart of 5/11/08 with similar situation:

So, even till the end of Bar 15 in 15min chart, the SAR remains fixed at high+room of Bar6(15min) / Bar4(30min) / Bar 3(60min)
ie 3145.5+7

Sunil,

Thanks for the exhaustive explaination of pivots.. Helps clear some doubts for sure..

I have been trying out a simpler heuristic.. First look for pivots on 30 min.. Mostly a 30 min pivot gets confirmed on 15 min first, so now we look at pivots on the 15 mins, but as you had rightly pointed out on 3rd and 5th nov, we had pivots on the 15 min, which should not be taken as SAR. The method I am using is pretty simple.. Look in the 20 min tf to confirm the pivot on the 15 min.. Using a timeframe that is offset from the other timeframe, we can clearly distinguish between clear textbook pivots and those that are slightly not easily visible.. So right now i am looking at 30 min, 60 min, 20 min and 15 min.. When a pivot is confirmed on the 15 min, look at 20 min and 30 min to see if it is looking like a pivot would be formed on these 2 time frames. Also see if the 15 min pivot coincides with the high/log of a 60 min bar. If one goes thru the charts for the past 1 month and looks at the pivots identified as SAR, almost all of them fulfil this criteria.

A few more things to consider when looking at pivots on the 30 min TF (takin PH examples here)
a. 2-3 bars having visually the same rough high value would constitute a PH.
b. 3 or more bars with visually similar high and low values would also constitute as a valid pivot high & low for the mini flow method.
c. A V move, which would be a up bar slightly longer than the preceding bars followed by a down bar with the up bar closing near its highs and the down bar opening near the highs..

Besides this, the key as per my understanding has been to look at points where the market has turned. A pivot as per saint's latest definition is the point where the market has turned around. This is something that is not very easy to do in the begining, but looking at pivots from this point of view and understanding how various candlestick bars form would help you to identify pivots a lot more easily than by using the textbook examples. Those are also pivots, but for methods like the mini flow, we need to be a lot more agressive..

One thing that anyone can do is to load past data in amibroker and then to run it in bar by bar replay with 1 min interval. Once you start the replay, you can pause it and ask amibroker to move one bar at a time by clicking on the > button on the bar by bar replay window. This makes it very easy to see bars as they are being formed and how pivots get formed and hence how to identify them. Doing this for data of 3-4 months will give anyone a good idea of how to spot pivots..

-- no1lives4ever

 

[Sunil]

Saint,

Thanks for the insult.

In the past whenever I raised this question no one would answer because the seniors thought it was below their dignity and the rest didnot have any answer. All they would say is read "teach a man how to fish" again. These cronies donot know that you have not explained this problem there. So I deleted my questions. Today, I even IMed some people for the answer but none of them knew.

I thought at least you will explain but what I recd is an insult. I am sure many cronies will pounce on me now for saying so. The same chaps who didnot bother to clarify when I requested help after you insulted me. One of the cronies even posted something saying you were right in your reply( read insult). All donot have same "skills" nor every one is gifted with same no of grey cells. I belong to the slower category. I am not allowed to ask questions because none will be replied except by three or four people who I hold in high regard. All that I understood here is that we have many people who want to make money at any cost not bothering about anyone else. They will lick your boots as long as it suits them. Most importantly they have no respect for those who are senior to them by decades.

The world is no different where ever you go.

I have no grudges against you. You have done enough for people. I appreciate everything you have done. But it takes one wrong act to dent the good you have done. Please be careful. As you rightly said -- "cannot apologise for that--", I donot expect any apologies. At 60, I have out grown that stage. Pl donot reply to this post. I will indeed appreciate if others too donot reply as it doesnot concern them. They need not poke their nose now.

vps

VPS sir,

We have never interacted on this topic before... Your outburst is indeed a shocking surprise to me.
I realise I am of very small stature to explain something to YOU on SAINT's behalf...
But since it involves Saint Sir and some of my friends / co-members, I wanted to clear out somethings....

My previous post with some illustrations are some of the examples with which Saint sir has been trying to make us understand this method. These are realtime situations, and decisions were taken on the spot with consensus & explanation.
Even it pains me when i see some posts with 15/20min charts stating that 15min pivot high break is the reason to go long SAR.... even though that 15/20min PH is not supported by anything in 30/60... We can try & help others to avoid such mistakes, but in realtime trading, there's actually no time for arguments, etc. Either the other guy gets stopped out, or we enter late into his position - either way, we have to fully convince ourself before giving away a position.
You have to first understand the rules of the flow method, and make it clear that we are looking for REVERSAL PIVOT BARS IN MULTIPLE TFs, and not just any pivot in lower TF...

Extract from Saint Sir's rules:

STOP AND REVERSE:All stops are reverse points.....Stops are placed above the high of the first bar in case of shorts,and moved down only if we get a reversal or after 4 bars.

There are 2 types of reversals:
a)No warning whatsoever,a V Pattern,a fall and a quick rise.No pivots on the 15min charts,take stops if hit.Meaning stop above the first bar high,we have next bar LH-LL,next bar we have a hammer on the 30,still LH-LL,stops still at high of the first bar,take the stops if hit and reverse to longs......

b)Usually,reversals happen with a lot of warning signals,the 20,30 and 60 or at least 2 of them fall in line,before the actual reversal happens.Our job is not to get that earliest point,but that point where reversal is obvious.

So,a hammer on the 30,accompanied by higher pivot lows on the 15 and a reversal candle on the 60,probably volumes come in handy as well......all in,put together tells us about an impending reversal.And we bring our stops down to that point and reverse to longs.........Other than that,we take it as if the trend continues in the direction of the first bar break till all timeframes come together to warn us of an impending reversal.

All reversals are Rs7 from the reversal bar high/low or pivot high/low...


Saint

What saint sir meant that we have to stop looking at our hands and trying to confirm whether we have a pivot high or low, and should we take that as SAR..
15/20 TF is such that u may find a pivot high/low forming every half-hour or every hour....
One has to remove the "dam" from the mind and realise that we are nop playing "hide-n-seek" game with pivot.... we have put in our money in a trade, and we will REVERSE it ONLY IF THE CONCERNED BAR'S HIGH/LOW IS TAKEN OUT....
We have to keep our mind open and w/o bothering what others are posting, we have to verify with our own eyes whether such a bar deserves to be called a REVERSAL BAR, by referring to all TF charts....
We have to take PH / PL ONLY ON ITS MERIT
MERIT = SUPPORTING VISUAL EVIDENCE FROM OTHER TF CHARTS...

AND BEST RULE IS: IF IN DOUBT, STAY OUT

With respect to your age, I would just request you to respect Saint's effort with which he has been trying to spread such jewels of trading & making sure that "guiding light" torch is not just lit for us, but it's also in our hands when we find ourselves in dark (in simple words, to be self-dependent; learning to fish ourself)

Open your mind; broaden your view; and focus ONLY on the chart of the scrip you are trading. For eg., if we are long, we have to visually confirm by looking at all TF charts, where bears will gain upperhand. Then, we will become bears ourselves & go short.
For first timers, it is advisable that this method be applied to only ONE scrip in one trading day, as it requires full concentration along with flexibility & adaptability to changing situation.
If one doesn't like this, then I guess, INTRADAY TRADING is not suitable for such a person.