Upstox - RKSV - Trade in Rs 20 Max

[augubhai]

Hi gansal,

The change in policy is applicable across the platforms. For SL MKT orders the margin is blocked based on the trigger price. So if the SL MKT is lesser than LTP(incase of buy order) then the margin blocked from a user will be lower compared to the actual build up position. This was the reason of blocking.

To ivoke such order you can place a limit order if you wish to purchase below LTP or sell above LTP. We hope this clarifies the doubt

Yes,I agree with this
If worried then increase margin requirement for SLM based order.
No other broker is doing this sort of things

If what Snake.Head mentions is true, then I guess it is an RMS scenario that has not been handled in Upstox platforms like Upstox PRO, and instead of resolving the issue on those platforms, it has been decided to hack the RMS on platforms like Nest as well.

I know it is unwarranted of me to guess the root of the problem, but when RKSV makes unwarranted suggestions like use of LIMIT or MARKET orders to handle the issue, then I am only being fair.

Still I don't agree. By that logic you should block direct market orders as well because you don't know the fill price. Atleast incase of SL-M you know the trigger price. How do you manage margin blocking when market orders are placed?

Exactly. If margins can be calculated for MARKET orders, is it difficult to apply a higher margin based of LTP in a scenario where the price crossed the trigger price? Also, this is just the question of the initial margin, and the RMS will anyways recalculate and apply revised margin in case of adverse movement.

It is irritating to miss out on good momentum trades just because the LTP is beyond the trigger price by a few ticks. This seems so silly, unless there is a better reason for the change.

 

[iTrade]

If what Snake.Head mentions is true, then I guess it is an RMS scenario that has not been handled in Upstox platforms like Upstox PRO, and instead of resolving the issue on those platforms, it has been decided to hack the RMS on platforms like Nest as well.

I know it is unwarranted of me to guess the root of the problem, but when RKSV makes unwarranted suggestions like use of LIMIT or MARKET orders to handle the issue, then I am only being fair.



Exactly. If margins can be calculated for MARKET orders, is it difficult to apply a higher margin based of LTP in a scenario where the price crossed the trigger price? Also, this is just the question of the initial margin, and the RMS will anyways recalculate and apply revised margin in case of adverse movement.

It is irritating to miss out on good momentum trades just because the LTP is beyond the trigger price by a few ticks. This seems so silly, unless there is a better reason for the change.

All my trades are 100% SL-M . I missed a profit making trade and that is when I realized about this policy update. Its hard to convince myself that a discussion is going on such a silly thing that should not even exist in the trading world. It is a one-step backward and suggestions like "use limit orders" from a discount broker where maximum clients probably are intraday traders is :rofl:
This is my last request to RKSV to rollback this. Everybody has a choice.

 

[Newbie Day-Trader]

Same problem AGAIN, today. I'd put in a SINGLE OCO entry-order with 28 shares (discl qty was 3, if that somehow matters), & it opened 2 separate SL's & TP's for it. Both TP's were hit without any problem & SL's canceled automatically, & although it wasn't a large order, if it was then one might be charged higher brokerage if those two orders are considered separate orders even though they weren't. So RKSV, please look into this as soon as possible.

high quality image upload

 

[id4trade]

When is order from charts coming??

Bump.

@RKSV, any comment on this would be appreciated.

 

[cloudTrader]

Same problem AGAIN, today. I'd put in a SINGLE OCO entry-order with 28 shares (discl qty was 3, if that somehow matters), & it opened 2 separate SL's & TP's for it. Both TP's were hit without any problem & SL's canceled automatically, & although it wasn't a large order, if it was then one might be charged higher brokerage if those two orders are considered separate orders even though they weren't. So RKSV, please look into this as soon as possible.

high quality image upload

Somehow I am noticing that similar to Zerodha people, RKSV is also not trying to clarify the doubts once & for all.

Taking your example I am assuming that if we take trades in 4 scrips involving 500 shares for each & such multiple SL & TP orders are placed then what could be the scenario in brokerage calculation.

If automation does not provide for ease of business then whats the use of adopting such automation?

 

[Newbie Day-Trader]

Somehow I am noticing that similar to Zerodha people, RKSV is also not trying to clarify the doubts once & for all.

Taking your example I am assuming that if we take trades in 4 scrips involving 500 shares for each & such multiple SL & TP orders are placed then what could be the scenario in brokerage calculation.

If automation does not provide for ease of business then whats the use of adopting such automation?

Right, although I HOPE that RKSV wants to provide a better service than Zerodha. I mean I wasn't even paying most of the brokerage at Zerodha (because of 60 Day Challenge), & with RKSV I'll have to pay some, & frankly, I don't mind paying a little bit for a better trading experience but I certainly don't want to end up paying as much brokerage as I might at Sharekhan or a similar broker, due to this issue of orders getting split during execution & then each one potentially being considered a separate order, & charged thereof.

Well, it's more about the turnover than the number of shares. So, if someone traded shares worth about 4L, then normally they'd expect to pay Rs.20 on each side of the trade but if the order gets split & charged thereof then they might end up paying Rs.40 or more on each side of the trade. Even in Futures, if someone bought 5 lots of NIFTY then they'd normally expect to pay Rs.20 since it's a single order but if it gets split into 5 trades then they might end up paying Rs.100 on BOTH sides of the trade.

And, you know, while higher brokerage should definitely be a concern for large orders, it's not the only concern about this type of an issue because if you put an order & it gets split into 5 or 10 orders then you'd have to manage 5 or 10 SL's & TP's instead of only one SL & TP per trade. Just think about how much time one would end up wasting, modifying all of those orders individually if one needed to do that; not to mention, all of those UNNECESSARY orders clogging up your Order-Book would be very annoying to look at if you are trading 4-5 scrips simultaneously.

 

[RKSV]

Does this make any sense? How can a single OCO Limit entry-order open up multiple SL's & TP's in the ORDER-BOOK? Sure, you could have multiple executions for a single entry-order but isn't that supposed to considered as a SINGLE order anyway since the trader only put a single entry-order? Will this mean I'll be paying brokerage separately for each executed order even if I only put in a single entry-order for a stock? I was really weirded out by this & closed the whole thing down soon afterwards because I couldn't really make sense of what was going on. You can see the trade-book as well, so I don't know why the order-book was showing up the way it was. Was it because the order was only partially executed? But even then I'm not sure if this should happen at all.

my photo upload

Hi Newbie Day-Trader,

Yes, multiple legs will be generated incase of OCO.

If you notice the 2nd and 3rd legs are formed only after the execution of 1st leg. There are multiple reasons attached to it such as

- 2nd or 3rd leg might get triggered before 1st leg, if all three were shown at the same time.
- Inter Connectivity of 2nd and 3rd leg with the 1st leg

To make it more convenient interms of order management and execution 2nd and 3rd legs are formed only for traded quantity from 1st leg. There is a high probability that your 1st leg is partially executed and you wish to modify the prices of 2nd or 3rd leg for the partially executed 1st leg, so in this case you will always find the 2nd and 3rd legs available.

Second case is that brokerage is charged based on exchange order nos. Incase of OCO(BO) there is a possibility where multiple exchange order nos are generated after looking on the nature how 2nd and 3rd legs are generated(generation of multiple 2nd and 3rd legged orders). So you will be charged brokerage accordingly.

This is the reason OCO is known as a complex order across the broking industry. Hope the answers your question

 

[RKSV]

But then you dont have buy/sell button on landscape mode chart. How do one suppose to trade then?

Hi id4trade,

Yes you will soon get a buy and sell order entry from charts on the mobile app. It is a little complex as we need to support smaller devices but can be expected till end of June

 

[Newbie Day-Trader]

Hi Newbie Day-Trader,

Yes, multiple legs will be generated incase of OCO.

If you notice the 2nd and 3rd legs are formed only after the execution of 1st leg. There are multiple reasons attached to it such as

- 2nd or 3rd leg might get triggered before 1st leg, if all three were shown at the same time.
- Inter Connectivity of 2nd and 3rd leg with the 1st leg

To make it more convenient interms of order management and execution 2nd and 3rd legs are formed only for traded quantity from 1st leg. There is a high probability that your 1st leg is partially executed and you wish to modify the prices of 2nd or 3rd leg for the partially executed 1st leg, so in this case you will always find the 2nd and 3rd legs available.

Second case is that brokerage is charged based on exchange order nos. Incase of OCO(BO) there is a possibility where multiple exchange order nos are generated after looking on the nature how 2nd and 3rd legs are generated(generation of multiple 2nd and 3rd legged orders). So you will be charged brokerage accordingly.

This is the reason OCO is known as a complex order across the broking industry. Hope the answers your question

So in short, if we use OCO for large orders (> Rs.2 lacs), then depending on execution, we'd better be prepared to pay more than Rs.20 on each side of the order? Isn't that basically what you're saying? (please do correct me if I'm wrong about this) If yes, then why can't you come up with an internal system whereby such split orders aren't charged separately, by somehow tracing them back to the single entry-order that the trader had put in? Don't get me wrong, I can totally sympathize with the complexity of what you're dealing with when it comes to OCO orders but you have got to come up with some solution to this issue, otherwise there's no point in saying "0.01% or Rs.20, whichever is lower" if people using OCO could potentially end up paying much more than Rs.20 per order. And, do you really expect DAY-TRADERS to manage 10 SL's & TP's if their entry-order gets split into 10 parts?

To Other Traders,
I've not traded BO with other brokers since they don't seem to be providing BO with SL-M or SL-L entries; so when you guys trade BO with other brokers, have you ever ended up with several SL's & TP's for a SINGLE entry-order just because it got executed in several parts? If this is how BO's work everywhere then I don't know how people manage all of those SL's & TP's if & when they need to.

 

[id4trade]

Hi id4trade,

Yes you will soon get a buy and sell order entry from charts on the mobile app. It is a little complex as we need to support smaller devices but can be expected till end of June

Thanks and dont forget full screen mode. In web and on mobile.

Also reply to the post above.