Teach A Man To Fish And.........

[ratan jain]

AJAX:

If u were a girl I would kiss you

Traderji is really filled with people trying to make trading look like rocket engineering.

Big words, long indicator names

I may be wrong, but its fun to be wrong and make money albeit a small amount compared to what can be pulled from the markets.


I second your views ajax.

 

[Saint]

The amateur assumes that he can conquor the markets through superior analysis. He spends nearly all his time looking for effective ways to predict where the markets are likely to go next. I have been trading since 1987 and spent many years myself on this fruitless quest. Fortunately for me I have found that it is not necessary to predict the markets to make money from them.

My favourite indicator is "NOTHING"! I just look at bar charts for breakouts out after a period of consolidation. Those of you who may be interested can search for my previous threads where I have provided my trading style with charts.

Hi Traderji,

Very happy to see a post from you after a really long time.........and refreshing as always!Great post........and think we need more from you!

Shall post your strategies here for those who are not in the know of the Traderji Way.

All the best!
Saint

 

[Saint]

new member withlots of thousand beaten lakh shy experience. to follow ur footsteps to lear few good things thank u

A warm welcome to you,my friend.....and all the best!

Saint

 

[beginner_av]

hmm...traderji has said a very important thing about simplicity. and kalyan has summed it up pretty well - "In fact any complexity in the underlying is justified only if it makes the interface, the actual trading simpler". just like the utility concept of CV.

i dont think there's any question of simple vs complex. what is complex for some is actually very simple for others. just because you have a so called complex system, you wont be a big winner. but just because you have some simple system that works in a big trending market cos u happen to be there, you shouldn't dance around saying it works, it works, so a simple system of mine is all that is required. cos history is filled with such examples of simple systems that failed miserably. not because the systems were SIMPLE, but the users did not see the limitations of such systems and kept using them even when the market changed.
Mark Cook used a simple system of tick, trin and ticki. marty sch used a simple system of interrelationship between bond-S&P. While David Shaw used so called "very complex" algorithms. and all of them became wizards. however do not forget that Dennis Richards, a one time wizard using a famous "simple" system, had to close his fund and retire in the end cos he couldn't adapt to the new market conditions.

so the question here is more about adaptability and open mindedness. once you have that, you use whatever is comfortable to you.

as for RJ's MAs, everyone knows that MAs lag. If he or anyone still wants to use it and trade on its basis, its perfectly fine. tomorrow when the market stops trending, if RJ can still use MAs on 1 min to 5 ticks or whatever and make money, its absolutely fine.
On the other hand if Asish wants to upgrade to Genetic Optimizers to get an edge, that is perfectly fine too, provided he can incorporate it in his trading.
The experienced members like CV, Traderji, Saint, Karthik and others can only point out the futility and pitfalls of using certain things. Its up to each individual to decide how to incorporate that feedback. theres nothing more to it. again i'll repeat, its not about discretionary vs mechanical, or simple vs complex. its individual approach to the market that eventually translates to an edge. how you get it is highly subjective and varies from person to person.

 

[Saint]

Dear Saint,

Well I think people like you are naturally gifted discretionary traders, Tushar Chande in his book "Beyond Technical Analysis" in the very first chapter itself says of the two methods (discretionary & system trading) its the discretionary method which is preffered provided you are able to trade that way as you are able to.

Why would you want to be a system trader?

Chande attributes this to varying position sizing depending on how strongly you feel the chances of the trade going in your favor are. This according to him is the reason discretionary trading is the superior method provided of course you are suited for it, if not he recommends system trading.

Clearly you're in the gifted category, since you've been doing this successfully for over a decade.

One other book I read titled "Mechanical Trading system" by a Mr. Weismann says the very same thing which is of the two methods, the discretionary one is the preferred method provided you have the discipline and talent to trade in this manner.

Elementary or not your thread is one of the glittering gems here at traderji, please don't think otherwise.

Thank you for your kind words,my friend......am not too sure if I qualify as a discretionary trader,though!

Whether discretionary is better or mechanical is better is an age old discussion,rather argument, that can never end.........would do whatever suits you best!

Once again,not read of Chande,but thanks.......shall have a look at his stuff.

This thread being elementary..........not sure about that any more.

All the best!
Saint

 

[Saint]

Saint,
Frankly now i am in between 2 different school of thoughts,to confess i am a trader like you this is my source of earning.I trade with my own coded indicators ,(these are derived from simple MA cross over ,trendline & support / resistance etc only in Metastock other than this softwares language i dont know any other language) a little change from traditional MAs .Now with these basic indicators (complex in it is the Noise / Phase / Filters etc is taken care of) i have done several backtests & found this to be satisfactory upto my need.Moreover for last few months payout chqs are more fat.(Which may also be due to this bull phase)
The latest concept having good purchase amongst the traders world over is Neural Network / Fuzzy Logic / Genetic Algorithm etc ,which you are aware, better than me.
My inner feeling is that we traders have to upgrade ourselves ,conceptually to these exposures,very fast,to get atleast the Smart money & pros not against but along with us.
Your guidance in this aspect will clear all confusion in me.
Asish

Asish,

The line in bold says it all,my friend.......anything that works for you is the best way for you.Great going,and may the cheques get fatter by the month.

Am all for upgradation....stagnation in anything is death.The advice from my end is only this,an obvious one: Do whatever it takes to up the profits.......and if upgrading can help achieve that,Great!! But if that something doesn't give you the same profits,well,then it obviously isn't working.The point is :Focus on the making of money and the increase in the profits,etc,and then do whatever it takes.

All the best!
Saint

 

[uasish]

Thks for your valued opinion.

 

[Saint]

The experienced members like .......................... and others can only point out the futility and pitfalls of using certain things. Its up to each individual to decide how to incorporate that feedback. theres nothing more to it. again i'll repeat, its not about discretionary vs mechanical, or simple vs complex. its individual approach to the market that eventually translates to an edge. how you get it is highly subjective and varies from person to person.

As always,excellent stuff from you,Bav..........great stuff!!

however do not forget that Dennis Richards, a one time wizard using a famous "simple" system, had to close his fund and retire in the end cos he couldn't adapt to the new market conditions.

There are two sides to that coin.......you will hear it on the Turtle Trader website,but as in most things in life,there is always the other side of the coin!

..............but just because you have some simple system that works in a big trending market cos u happen to be there, you shouldn't dance around saying it works, it works, so a simple system of mine is all that is required. cos history is filled with such examples of simple systems that failed miserably. not because the systems were SIMPLE, but the users did not see the limitations of such systems and kept using them even when the market changed.

nothing lasts forever,and systems have to change accordingly to suit different times..................if a long term trend following system were used to trade the Dow between the 60's and 80's(not sure the exact period!),one may have landed up with severe losses.

So Stagnation is Death,Adaptation is a Must to different scenarios.

Thanks Bav as always!

Saint

 

[beginner_av]

thank you Saint for your encouragement.

 

[karthikmarar]

Hi friends

Nice discussion on here. Just sharing my thoughts on this subject here,

I agree with Saint on one thing Do whatever, simple MA crossover, complex genetic algos, fuzzy logic but as long as you make money you are ok.

But to argue that only complex stuff works is an unacceptable argument. As BAV put it to each one his own way, but make money.

Sorry kalyan, but looks like soon you would expect the trading system to do the trading all by itself and make money for you while you relax on the beach.

Now the newbie coming to the forum is given an impression that without fuzzy logic blah blah he cannot ever make money from the market. I was surprised yesterday when I saw a youngster in the chat room who has not even done a single trade searching for a complex trading system.

We all know that the neural networks, Fuzzy logic etc are complex and understanding them fully is difficult to even to an engineer like me. Those who are well versed in basics of TA graduating to fuzzy logic and genetic algorithms is quite understandable. But for a newcomer it is going to be far fetched and trading on signals, thrown out by a system you dont even understand could prove rather disastrous.

My advice to the newbie would be understand the basic tenets, approaches and nuisance of TA before wandering into the world of data mining, NN, GA etc.

Dont get carried away when you see people brandishing attracting charts, high sounding words, fantastic figures.. Start with the basics, soon you can decide yourself where you want to go further.

Just an advice to the newcomers hope the high-tech guys will pardon me..

Warm regards

Karthik