Zerodha Part 2

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Zerodha

Well-Known Member
Re: Zerodha Trader on MAC

I had tried to use the OS-X version, called Nest TraderAir, of ZT from ur downloads section. Does not work. Your support people advised me to not bother using the version. Any timeframe for when a proper version will be released?
Sridhar,

The requirement for Apple is so less that the developers take easy on it. The traderair is a very basic version of ZT, we are pushing the development team to have a new release for MAC, but can't give you timelines on this..

I'd suggest, run both the OS on mAC and run the ZT on microsoft as even if you use the mac version, a lot of features won't be available on that...
 

Zerodha

Well-Known Member
TO ZERODHA,
sir, you promised A new brokerage charges for high frequency traders, scalp traders.Please update.
KSP,

NCDEX will probably still take sometime, we are members on it now, but hardly any interest from our clients to trade on it. Actually in double digits and wouldn't make business sense to be live on it.. We will go live as soon as we see any interest in retail participation on that exchange..

About new brokerage charges, I don't remember any such promise. Presently our objective is to offer a lot more for the same pricing.

If you are talking about a fixed monthly fees, I don't think we would be subscribing to that model ever as we think it is flawed. The idea behind discount broking, how it has successfully worked across developed markets is that in today's online world, for a broker the cost of executing a trade doesn't go up with the size of the trade, so if the cost is not going up why charge client based on the size of his trade. In the US, discount brokers charge between $4 to $8 per trade, based on where you trade. In India, the regulatory cost, exchange deposits etc are much lesser than what is in US and hence we can offer you a platform at much lesser than even the lowest available int the US, at zerodha Rs 20 which is around $0.4 10% of that.

With a fixed monthly plan, the logic is flawed because how can the effort put for 2 clients be the same if 1 is trading once a month and the other 100 times a month. The other way to look at is, is like a buffet system in a hotel. You offer unlimited food at same time assuming that only few people will be eating more and hence it will workout on the average. But the risk with this is, that the math can keep going wrong once a while, have you been to buffet where you realize where you have paid for a buffet, but don't get the choice of what you want to eat?

Even if you assume that this will keep working, this model can go completely awry when you mix this buffet kind of model with a-la-carte, that is offer a fixed monthly fees and also offer a per trade fees. This is like saying people who eat very less choose by dish and those who think trade more choose the fixed, yes sounds brilliant for a client, but how does the business make money? If the business doesn't make money, how does he continue offering his services over a long term? What if tomorrow NOW is not free and brokers have to start spending on technology? If he is constantly worried about all of this, how does he stay focused on improving the services? Brokerage is the only business in the world which is constant deflation, the prices keep coming down, so yes everyone will clap when you reduce prices, but can you increase the price if you realize that your initial model was maybe not correct?

Am sitting in an airport and had sometime and hence the long post.. :).. The idea is to not point to any brokers, but we have been getting requests on monthly fixed charges and wanted to clarify on why we won't be offering such a deal.
 
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Zerodha, I know a bit of catering. Both buffet and a la carte are established and now time tested models. Both the models are running fine independently and in combination. Even carte de jour has its place, specially in lower-priced segments.

The analogy is flawed, to say the least.

So, if you don't subscribe to it, ok. But these models do not appear to be putdownable in their present state.

Edit : Do the broker's costs go up with the number of trades ?
With a fixed monthly plan, the logic is flawed because how can the effort put for 2 clients be the same if 1 is trading once a month and the other 100 times a month. The other way to look at is, is like a buffet system in a hotel. You offer unlimited food at same time assuming that only few people will be eating more and hence it will workout on the average. But the risk with this is, that the math can keep going wrong once a while, have you been to buffet where you realize where you have paid for a buffet, but don't get the choice of what you want to eat?

Even if you assume that this will keep working, this model can go completely awry when you mix this buffet kind of model with a-la-carte, that is offer a fixed monthly fees and also offer a per trade fees. This is like saying people who eat very less choose by dish and those who think trade more choose the fixed, yes sounds brilliant for a client, but how does the business make money? If the business doesn't make money, how does he continue offering his services over a long term? What if tomorrow NOW is not free and brokers have to start spending on technology? If he is constantly worried about all of this, how does he stay focused on improving the services? Brokerage is the only business in the world which is constant deflation, the prices keep coming down, so yes everyone will clap when you reduce prices, but can you increase the price if you realize that your initial model was maybe not correct?

Am sitting in an airport and had sometime and hence the long post.. :).. The idea is to not point to any brokers, but we have been getting requests on monthly fixed charges and wanted to clarify on why we won't be offering such a deal.
 
Zerodha, I know a bit of catering. Both buffet and a la carte are established and now time tested models. Both the models are running fine independently and in combination. Even carte de jour has its place, specially in lower-priced segments.

The analogy is flawed, to say the least.

So, if you don't subscribe to it, ok. But these models do not appear to be putdownable in their present state.

Edit : Do the broker's costs go up with the number of trades ?
Sounds like a broken record, but Zerodha profit model is based purely on charging extra "Transaction Cost" to tune of Rs. 300 / Cr on one side of the trade, i.e. Rs 600 / Cr for intraday trades.

And no surprise in this not being mentioned in the long airport post :)

Cheers
::thumb::
 

Zerodha

Well-Known Member
Zerodha, I know a bit of catering. Both buffet and a la carte are established and now time tested models. Both the models are running fine independently and in combination. Even carte de jour has its place, specially in lower-priced segments.

The analogy is flawed, to say the least.

So, if you don't subscribe to it, ok. But these models do not appear to be putdownable in their present state.

Edit : Do the broker's costs go up with the number of trades ?
The thing what is not factored today by most of the brokers offering unlimited trading is the technology cost.

Yes NOW helped us start it off, but NOW is not a permanent solution, brokers will have to go for their own technology. This is when it will be interesting..

Yes brokers cost goes up with number of trades, if 1 client is doing one trade a month and another 10 trades a day for 20 days, there is definitely so much more going in terms of supporting the person who is doing 10 trades a day for 20 days..

As I was saying, just our view and not pointed out at any competition...
 
The thing what is not factored today by most of the brokers offering unlimited trading is the technology cost.

Yes NOW helped us start it off, but NOW is not a permanent solution, brokers will have to go for their own technology. This is when it will be interesting..

Yes brokers cost goes up with number of trades, if 1 client is doing one trade a month and another 10 trades a day for 20 days, there is definitely so much more going in terms of supporting the person who is doing 10 trades a day for 20 days..

As I was saying, just our view and not pointed out at any competition...
I differ with you on that bold statement. The others too are perhaps as experienced as you in the markets, if not more. They too must have done their cost calculations before declaring their schemes. No reason to believe that they would overlook an obvious parameter like the trading platform. As long as NSE provides NOW, and as long as most of the small traders trade NFO (+ maybe CDS), NOW suffices as to their basic trading needs. Most of the small traders are not aware of the advanced trading tools and hence have no need of them as yet. Your experience with NOW usage would have told you that 90% (maybe) of the traders use it for simple "Buy" or "Sell". Maybe for "SL". Most of them do not even explore the menus.

As long as such traders are there, their desire for a yet another cheaper broker will continue to get fed. And that like endless.

You have the first move advantage where discount brokers go, and you have so far kept it up with good customer service.

The other discount brokers too do not lag behind in respect of customer services. The difference is that the customer now has a wide range of options to choose from.

I see that you are opening branch offices rapidly. Doesn't that add to your costs ?
 

Zerodha

Well-Known Member
I differ with you on that bold statement. The others too are perhaps as experienced as you in the markets, if not more. They too must have done their cost calculations before declaring their schemes. No reason to believe that they would overlook an obvious parameter like the trading platform. As long as NSE provides NOW, and as long as most of the small traders trade NFO (+ maybe CDS), NOW suffices as to their basic trading needs. Most of the small traders are not aware of the advanced trading tools and hence have no need of them as yet. Your experience with NOW usage would have told you that 90% (maybe) of the traders use it for simple "Buy" or "Sell". Maybe for "SL". Most of them do not even explore the menus.

As long as such traders are there, their desire for a yet another cheaper broker will continue to get fed. And that like endless.

You have the first move advantage where discount brokers go, and you have so far kept it up with good customer service.

The other discount brokers too do not lag behind in respect of customer services. The difference is that the customer now has a wide range of options to choose from.

I see that you are opening branch offices rapidly. Doesn't that add to your costs ?
It is important to have multiple brokers in the same space, only then can the business model sustain. Today 85% of the retail trading business happens through discount brokers in the US and we think in 3 years from now, it will be the same here.

I think 3 years from now, you would have a lot more options than what is available presently and hopefully we would be in the forefront.

About NOW, hmm... as a person on the other side you would not understand the limitations, so no point discussing that. But if you ask any broker who is completely online, I am sure it will not fit in the scheme of things on a longer term basis, everyone would be looking at ways to increase revenues and move out of it. What you think is the problem with NOW is not for the client, it is for the broker offering who has to run risk management on it who faces the problem. The challenge would be when you make that technology move, the cost of servicing a client who does only 1 trade a month and one who does 200 trades a month changes, in terms of bandwidth utilization charges, license charges etc. If people can adapt to it at a fixed monthly scheme and offer the performance of collocated servers, i'd say kudos.

What we are doing is not opening branches, they are low cost support centers setup with partnership with people who believe the model is for the future and India is still a nascent market for broking business. Less than 70lk unique accounts and an abysmally low 20lk people who take 1 trade/year and less than 10lk active investor/trading community. For a population of 120 crores, it is actually pretty disgraceful for an economy like ours that only so many participate. For any country to get to the next level, you need active participation in the capital markets.

Brokers themselves are to be blamed for this, traditional ones who force clients to take trades and loose money and ensuring that they never come back to the markets.

What sets the developed markets apart is the professional attitude of investors/traders, which is lacking in India. The fact that people don't want anything other than a buy/sell on their terminal is worrying. By lowering brokerage or running any schemes that we as discount brokers run or the so called big names, we are all churning the same pool of 10lk active investor/trader.

We all need to wait and watch for a broker who will get people to start trading professionally. Give access to tools which is required for it and more importantly train on those tools. You might say this is all bull ****, I just need a buy/sell from a broker, but our capital markets will remain as it is if nothing is changed soon. Our capital markets are in pretty pathetic stage, if you look at liquidity in the markets. So guess we have to be that change if you want to see the change. Just read the article on the big boy launching, will be very interesting to see what they do when they launch, because they will have the potential to change the way India trades in a very short period of time.

Here is one for Reliance and hoping that big brother gets it right.. :) ..

Damn!! how is anyone trading commodities over the last few days, nerve wracking just looking at it move...
 
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