Come into the Trader's Den

[tnsn2345]

Dear Friends,

What Anurag had explicitly mentioned about trading is similar to gambling for shorter or intraday trading. Hence in that perspective the similarity is correct. Say for example if there are only day traders in the market on any given day, (i.e. all trader close their position before the close of the market), then it trading is a zero sum game like gambling. Even if there is intrinsic appreciation of the asset in which they trade still since they close their position, someone's losses are someone's gain.

4Pips counter points also carry weight but they are more from the point of view of mastering skill sets and then terming terming trading as a science or something which is logical. But IMO the similarity of trading and gambling is far more than the difference.

Like in trading there are various systems / methods to make money consistently, infact no two traders are alike. Hence people are bound to think differently and yet be successful. It would be unfair to judge someone's performance just on the views on a general subject. Like some believe in God some don't so you can argue or discuss endlessly but neither can pronounce that the other is wrong. Both can agree to disagree. We all on this thread are quite matured people with reasonable experience so no need to be offensive (4 pips) and defensive (Anurag).

Have a nice weekend identifying some good opportunities thanks to the volatility and huge swings in the market. Let us do our homework right. Money is there waiting. Sadly someone has to drop it so we can pick it.

Regards,

 

[Smart_trade]

Trading and Gambling

Trading, even if it is intraday trading is not gambling. The essential difference is as under :

1) Trader trades with an edge.....gambler has no edge, the house has an edge.

2) Trader trades with clear method...gambler bets on either no method or changes his method depending on his wins or losses ( double or quits,martingale....)

3) Trader trades with a tight risk control, gambler has no risk control....( only risk control for gambler is his return taxi fare )

4) Trader presses when he is winning....cuts down when he is loosing...gambler does the oposite...he bets big to get back all he lost in one single bet.

Day trading is a pure business for a seasoned trader. No emotions.....

Read in another thread about logic on which market came down today.....in daytrading we trade what is happening....we dont question about logic or reasons....that is a job of TV analysts...they need to give reasons....we need to make money trading....so if the mkt is not acting as per your "logic" atleast get out.....and dont loose trying to figureout why mkt came down....and if you can reverse your position, great...you are a real daytrader....

Smart_trade

 

[Easytrader]

Hi easytrader

""see the point is when there is no assumption and when there is no prediction only 100% truth then its trading for exp we go to a shop and buy a toothpaste the shopkeeper sells it at a price we buy he makes profit that guy is a trader i agree""

Can you enlightening us with a real live trading example about this comment ?

I mean : Giving an example to the beginners, how it is possible to sell some thing at a price which may not exist at the moment in the market ? ( But may will in a certain time in the future ? ).

The seller of the toothpaste also had to make once a decision, how much he is going to charge for the toothpaste. But this decision is not for ever and so he has to plan in advance how to act. How can we do that as option and future traders in a market, which every day changes prices ?

What kind of technical ways are around for such stuff

( I have been in a shop in Thailand, where you could buy one toothpaste and at the same time you got a present from a little can of tomato ketchup ). Please, do not laugh now, but laugh about it as I still do today.

DanPickUp

See dear the entire point is what we all think we are humans and are bound to think in different ways we will agree at some point and we will not agree in some point because arugments opinions are all part of our nature so as a social animals we are bound to end up in neverending discussion. Now if it was Warren Baffet talking here u see most of us will take it as an example and gonna say WOW what a man still back of our mind we still have arguments to support something which we did most of our life because we believed in it. Then no body is more intelligent than me kind of feeling gives us a table for arguments so the story goes on

so lets leave this topic and move on I have such arguments all the time in our Chai Wala corner with half a dozen cups gone the only thing is he makes some good money out of it so that guy is a trader

Happy Weekend:thumb:

 

[DanPickUp]

See dear the entire point is what we all think we are humans and are bound to think in different ways we will agree at some point and we will not agree in some point because arugments opinions are all part of our nature so as a social animals we are bound to end up in neverending discussion. Now if it was Warren Baffet talking here u see most of us will take it as an example and gonna say WOW what a man still back of our mind we still have arguments to support something which we did most of our life because we believed in it. Then no body is more intelligent than me kind of feeling gives us a table for arguments so the story goes on

so lets leave this topic and move on I have such arguments all the time in our Chai Wala corner with half a dozen cups gone the only thing is he makes some good money out of it so that guy is a trader

Happy Weekend:thumb:

Ok

Ask me THE SAME QUESTIONS AND I WILL GIVE YOU THE DIRECT ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS with no bla bla.

 

[jagankris]

Dear Dan,

Nice to see you writing again.
Thought you are busy settling down.

Please enable your PM.

TIA.

 

[DanPickUp]

Dear Dan,

Nice to see you writing again.
Thought you are busy settling down.

Please enable your PM.

TIA.

Hi buddy

Posted in SG thread, that I got the message to move earliest in June.

Will open PM for you.

Dan

 

[4xpipcounter]

Let me address a couple of points you made. I'm also glad you brought it up about "offensive (4 pips)", so let me clarify. Part of my trait is that I am hard working, and possibly dogmatic in my belief system. I try to be concise, honest, and straight to the point in all I do. What I didn't want it to appear (and this is why I'm glad you brought it up) that I came in here with both guns loaded. It is much easier to just not take the time to reply, or just unsubscribe to the thread. That being said, I worked hard to become the trader I am, and I don't like the conception of that being misconstrued that I gambled to get where I am today.
AW10 also made an excellent point, inasmuch that new traders enter these markets hoping to strike it rich quick. That is a gamblers' mentality. This becomes an excellent profession when the guiding principle becomes that of a business, and the hard work that is necessary to maintain the profitability of that business.
As a quick sidenote, and I know this is not the place for this discussion, but someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong when they say there is or is not God, therefore, when right or wrong exists, one or the other can be proven.
LOL, I was proven wrong today. I posted my 2nd losing trade in 3 weeks. It was my opinion that the EUR/AUD was going UP. My belief was wrong. Did I gamble? No, I was just wrong.

Oh my goodness!, another thought inspired me while I was writing. In acknowledging my losing trade, I took personal accountability for that trade. That enables me to possibly view it as what I did wrong and maybe seek to make improvements. If I was gambling, then the thought would be, "Well, I gambled, so there is nothing I can do about it. I just wasn't lucky."

Dear Friend. s,

What Anurag had explicitly mentioned about trading is similar to gambling for shorter or intraday trading. Hence in that perspective the similarity is correct. Say for example if there are only day traders in the market on any given day, (i.e. all trader close their position before the close of the market), then it trading is a zero sum game like gambling. Even if there is intrinsic appreciation of the asset in which they trade still since they close their position, someone's losses are someone's gain.

4Pips counter points also carry weight but they are more from the point of view of mastering skill sets and then terming terming trading as a science or something which is logical. But IMO the similarity of trading and gambling is far more than the difference.

Like in trading there are various systems / methods to make money consistently, infact no two traders are alike. Hence people are bound to think differently and yet be successful. It would be unfair to judge someone's performance just on the views on a general subject. Like some believe in God some don't so you can argue or discuss endlessly but neither can pronounce that the other is wrong. Both can agree to disagree. We all on this thread are quite matured people with reasonable experience so no need to be offensive (4 pips) and defensive (Anurag).

Have a nice weekend identifying some good opportunities thanks to the volatility and huge swings in the market. Let us do our homework right. Money is there waiting. Sadly someone has to drop it so we can pick it.

Regards,

 

[DanPickUp]

Let me address a couple of points you made. I'm also glad you brought it up about "offensive (4 pips)", so let me clarify. Part of my trait is that I am hard working, and possibly dogmatic in my belief system. I try to be concise, honest, and straight to the point in all I do. What I didn't want it to appear (and this is why I'm glad you brought it up) that I came in here with both guns loaded. It is much easier to just not take the time to reply, or just unsubscribe to the thread. That being said, I worked hard to become the trader I am, and I don't like the conception of that being misconstrued that I gambled to get where I am today.
AW10 also made an excellent point, inasmuch that new traders enter these markets hoping to strike it rich quick. That is a gamblers' mentality. This becomes an excellent profession when the guiding principle becomes that of a business, and the hard work that is necessary to maintain the profitability of that business.
As a quick sidenote, and I know this is not the place for this discussion, but someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong when they say there is or is not God, therefore, when right or wrong exists, one or the other can be proven.
LOL, I was proven wrong today. I posted my 2nd losing trade in 3 weeks. It was my opinion that the EUR/AUD was going UP. My belief was wrong. Did I gamble? No, I was just wrong.

Oh my goodness!, another thought inspired me while I was writing. In acknowledging my losing trade, I took personal accountability for that trade. That enables me to possibly view it as what I did wrong and maybe seek to make improvements. If I was gambling, then the thought would be, "Well, I gambled, so there is nothing I can do about it. I just wasn't lucky."

Hi my friend

You may just enjoy, relax and let the week behind you :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O_YMLDvvnw&feature=related

Greetings from the mountains

 

[4xpipcounter]

AW10, I was really enlightened when I use to live in Sacramento, Calif, and used to have to go to Reno, NV a lot for my sales job. I had a close association with the casinos (Long story, but I did not gamble.). I built some very close relationships with many of the workers, and people that were associated with the casinos. I was also in many of their homes.
The part of the enlightenment came in a conversation I had with a someone who wrote a book on gambling, and he shared with me some direct introspections and personal experiences, and when I got into trading I could see the same pattern.
I was shocked when he told me he asked me about gambling, and I told him I do not gamble. I'd rather make my money working for a living. He told me about how he is an excellent writer, and that is book make him very good money, but he never believed a single word of it. He told me he wrote the book in order to cater towards aspiring gamblers who did not want to work for a living.
The parallel is the same. There are many traders' inventions being sold as great money makers, like EA's, and get-rich-quick books. They all say the same thing, but are sold differently.

Professional gamblers?: How many do you personally know that are making a living gambling? (Not trying to put anyone on the spot with that question.) I knew one person in my whole life. He could pick the winners in football with uncanny accuracy. He took his final welfare check, went to Las Vegas, Nv, laid it down on some bets, and he won. This might be hard to believe, but after 4 years, he was banned from every casino in Las Vegas (This is what I was told after I noticed he was no longer around.).
Professional traders?: That needs to be defined, but let's assume it is someone trading as a FT profession. I know many. My uncle died a millionaire. I would venture a safe guess that people like Max McKegg, James Saettele, Ed Matts, Don Hains, Ian Park, Robert Prechter, and 4xpipcounter (LOL, I just had to throw him in there.) are all doing well in their trading. Also, I'd venture a safe guess that none of them view their trading as a gamble. Why? Because they are professionals.


0;520773]Adding my views on trading /gambling topic.

IMO, it depends on our belief about trading and how we look at it. If we take it as profession then it is as good (or as bad) as any other profession. But if we look at it as source of making quick money (similar to gambling, lottery etc), then it is no different from gambling. Unfortunately, majority of people enter casino or trading with same attitude of making quick money. Infact they are better off going to casino and risking/blowing their money cause they will can few free drinks and beautiful girls around (which they won't get in trading).

I have read about professional gamblers (not to confuse with addicted gamblers) who make money from the casino. They do have their money mgmt and position system to that wins even when odds are hardly 5% in their favour. Our trend following system giving 30% winning trade is very much same from statistical perspective.
At the end of the day, trading or gambling are nothing but the show of probabilities and decision making under uncertainties. Common factor is human being and our mindset.
If we can put probablities and psychology to become winner in trading, then certainly it is possible in casino too (provided we approach that with open mind and willing to put effort there).

In my personal experience, I have been to casino before getting into trading and after knowing the position sizing, money mgmt, system development etc in trading. I have seen the difference in my thought process. It does seem lot more easy to win on a table where reward/risk is 3 to 1 and there are 5 possible outcomes. In other words, it is 20% winning rate system, giving me 3:1 reward risk ratio.

In most of the cases, our limited knowledge of other domain and comfort feel with known domain makes us biased but if take a step back then it is very different story.

In short, I do agree with the view of Anurag. If I lookback then for me trading was gambling once upon a time, when I blew my account..but it is a profession now.

As Van Tharp says - "We trade our belief in market". If we believe the market is cheap, we are right but at the same time, other person who is selling has belief that mkt is overpriced so he is selling. Two people with two different belief participating in the same market. And both are correct from their point of view. Who wins or who looses, depends on how realistic their belief are.

Happy Trading[/QUOTE]

 

[4xpipcounter]

LOL.I was enjoying Enya. I decided to hear that video, and back to Enya I went. Now, I really enjoy her. I don't like blues (Because it males me feel blue.) I'm more New Age and classified. (Rats! No one will say thank-you for this post.)
You might know me better than I think. My wife and I have a wonderful weekend planned. It will begin with my previews for next week. After that, it will be fun and frolic with several of our grandchildren, and then my wife and I will go out, just me and her. Ahhh yes, life is good even when I don't have a chart in front of me.

Hi my friend

You may just enjoy, relax and let the week behind you :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O_YMLDvvnw&feature=related

Greetings from the mountains