Going With The 60min Flow!!!

[rakeshluthra430]

Rakesh,

Excellent question as always........

I had seen that,and you are not wrong in your Math.

Presuming we are having the same capital,and 1% is your risk....First Buy is at 4062.We did our Math and could take on about 82 shares,so we buy 1 lot NF.Add 1 more at 4024.......your risk is still 1% of your capital.

Presuming you took on slightly more risk yesterday--you took on 2 lots at 4062.If you add another 2 lots at 4024,you are assuming 2% risk to your capital.If you add 1 lot at 4024,still you are at 1.5% risk.Now you will have to assess the Risk percentage acceptable to you.........some might take on 2%,others 1.5%,others 1%.........

Case scenario 1:Mr A has a range of percentage,not a point.Meaning he takes on Risk of 1% and would like to keep it thereabouts,but even if on an add it rises to 1.5%,he would go for it.That is,initial positions are 1%,adds are equal to less only,he would like things to remain at 1%,but understands that circumstances may exist(like a gap),that may push the percentage out of 1%.He is prepared to take up to 1.5% but that's about it........anything more is sacrilege.......My strategy is like Mr A.

Case scenario 2:Mr B has a risk percentage of 1%,he buys it at 4062 using his 1%...........the question is:How does he then add at 4024?


Both Mr A and Mr B are faced with a dilemma at 4024............Now both A and B are going to find it difficult.A buys 2 lots at 4062,B buys 2 lots at 4062.......4024 ADD 1 opportunity comes along.....A would like to buy 2 lots,which would send his Risk up to 2%.He doesn't mind up to 1.5%,but not 2%......B has the same dilemma but he is not happy with 1 lot either as 1.5% is not in line with his Plan either.

So,B has to give up on both lots opportunity,and A has to give up one lot.................Here's what I did today:A buy at 4024 was juicy.But that would send my Risk up to 2%,bought 2 lots nevertheless........with a close watch on pivots.Risk 2%........by the latter part of the day,we have managed to bring our stops to 3980.Means our risk is back down to 1.2%.

If that had not happened,would have removed 1 lot at the end of the day,been happy with a good DayTrade,and holding 1.5% risk overnight.

Now,for you,you are willing to take on only 1% .........you have 2 choices.Either do what I did and if the move did not take place,exit both lots and you are back at 1% risk..........If the move does take place,you are raising stops and all is well...............Other way out is to not add there.

At the end of the day,you should take on only as much risk that can be handled by you..............


All the best!
Saint

Saint,
Thanks a lot for a thorough explaination...it is crystal clear to me now.
I guess I was too rigid in my money management...but the solutions provided by you take care of even that.

Wow...great feeling. Thanks a lot Saint, as always.

Thanks,
Rakesh

 

[rkkarnani]

Rakesh,

Excellent question as always........

I had seen that,and you are not wrong in your Math.

Presuming we are having the same capital,and 1% is your risk....First Buy is at 4062.We did our Math and could take on about 82 shares,so we buy 1 lot NF.Add 1 more at 4024.......your risk is still 1% of your capital.

Presuming you took on slightly more risk yesterday--you took on 2 lots at 4062.If you add another 2 lots at 4024,you are assuming 2% risk to your capital.If you add 1 lot at 4024,still you are at 1.5% risk.Now you will have to assess the Risk percentage acceptable to you.........some might take on 2%,others 1.5%,others 1%.........

Case scenario 1:Mr A has a range of percentage,not a point.Meaning he takes on Risk of 1% and would like to keep it thereabouts,but even if on an add it rises to 1.5%,he would go for it.That is,initial positions are 1%,adds are equal to less only,he would like things to remain at 1%,but understands that circumstances may exist(like a gap),that may push the percentage out of 1%.He is prepared to take up to 1.5% but that's about it........anything more is sacrilege.......My strategy is like Mr A.

Case scenario 2:Mr B has a risk percentage of 1%,he buys it at 4062 using his 1%...........the question is:How does he then add at 4024?


Both Mr A and Mr B are faced with a dilemma at 4024............Now both A and B are going to find it difficult.A buys 2 lots at 4062,B buys 2 lots at 4062.......4024 ADD 1 opportunity comes along.....A would like to buy 2 lots,which would send his Risk up to 2%.He doesn't mind up to 1.5%,but not 2%......B has the same dilemma but he is not happy with 1 lot either as 1.5% is not in line with his Plan either.

So,B has to give up on both lots opportunity,and A has to give up one lot.................Here's what I did today:A buy at 4024 was juicy.But that would send my Risk up to 2%,bought 2 lots nevertheless........with a close watch on pivots.Risk 2%........by the latter part of the day,we have managed to bring our stops to 3980.Means our risk is back down to 1.2%.

If that had not happened,would have removed 1 lot at the end of the day,been happy with a good DayTrade,and holding 1.5% risk overnight.

Now,for you,you are willing to take on only 1% .........you have 2 choices.Either do what I did and if the move did not take place,exit both lots and you are back at 1% risk..........If the move does take place,you are raising stops and all is well...............Other way out is to not add there.

At the end of the day,you should take on only as much risk that can be handled by you..............


All the best!
Saint

Things getting clearer about ADDs!!! Thanx to Rakesh for his query and as usual Thanks to Saint for his detailed clarification!!!

 

[TFL]

With so many people trading this thread. Taking a Headcount!

Press thanks button to this post and we will know you are with the Team!

Kudos to Saint!

Its not a fair practive man... Will result in false reputation to you.
Reported to moderators.

 

[AmritaBasu]

Sold at lower levels....Thought we were short before we went long...

Saint

I hadnt shorted then I was not following this thread then. I am just reading this thread.I was in doubt myself abt my long , asked here on traderji and since got their confidence stuck to my long for higher profitand then booked huge losses on monday. Will paper trade for a few days and will only trade next when I AM DISCIPLINED ENOUGH. I totally agree with ur no "I" and "ONLY" SYSTEM based trading. DISCIPLINE IS THE KEY.

 

[Saint]

So frankly tell me how many of you guys, yesterday when saint according to 30 mins said reverse positions, thought: "The guy's crazy..., man what the heck, is he sure, the whole world markets are falling apart..."

lol

 

[Saint]

Czar, I do not know about others, but I would definitely have taken the trade. As an important part of trade is to switch off the mind (very difficult though) and to stick to the system.

Well done,Kapil.......

Saint

 

[Saint]

TA using Indicarors, Trendlines etc has to be interpreted. So we have plethora of interpretation from many people, causing confusion. I am little bit averse to interpretaton, including myself.

That is where 60 Min Flow impresses me the most. No subjective interpratations, easy to understand even by dumb heads like me. The only difficuilt part is to stick with plan without getting swayed either by greed or fear. I am trying to learn that art and hence I believe, possibly I would have taken the Trade irrespective of the external conditions.

Cheers

Great going,my friend...

Saint

 

[orderflow13]

Hi saint sir,
Though I don't trade with 60 min flow ( bcuz i hv to juggle btween commodity n equity) , i make it a point to hit ur thread at the end of day,to see happy faces,going through the day of utter cacophony it seems so peaceful.
The reason i am writing here is,unknowingly you proving to cynics( Thogh its not a prime object of the thread), who falsely believe successful trader wont open his cards and he trade in his close office far away from broker instead of going public.Look guys see your self,seeing is believing,one utterly successful trader helping and trading successfully.
And your thread convinced my one of my trader friend, n he today register in traderji.
Like a true saint you doinig lot of good work at the same time with humbly rejecting the credits
Alex

 

[Saint]

Thanks Czar .... i did not post due to it may create confusion


I have deviated from Saint and did the following ....and prepared if today GAP up then will apply 5 min rule otherwise ok... i was waiting to high to break in my chart ( Though did not used Filter indiscplined me ) it was showing 4083 so once crossed then gone long

Yes i know i may be doing seriously wrong going against my teacher but i was not convinced at that time to use 30 min pivot....

so requesting Saint to please teach us when to use 30 min pivot when not
and member we should discus about this if not in this thread then in other thread " Question of 60 min flow ......."

( This chart prepared yesterday but did not post )


Regards
Satya

Hi Satya,

I knew you,Prabhjeet and a few others would hold on to the 60min Flow,without the 30min tweak...........and would therefore be holding shorts overnight.Nothing wrong with that at all.

The 60min chart is what we trade......the 30min chart comes in only when we get a vertical move down/up with no pivots,gap dn/up or sideways moves ,as in 2-3 bars on the 60.......then only do we hunt for Pivots on the 30.

Satya,as you keep trading,you will come across the 2 worst enemies of the Flow Trader.........we have all met Enemy 1--GAPS---and we have formulated a few methods to manage that Foe.For example,even if the gap is way against us,we would still wait for that first bar to get taken out...Else we are holding and probably adding.Another example is a Gap below Pivot and we are reversing and probably capitalising if that first bar is taken out.....so on so forth.

Now,enter ENEMY 2----the V-PATTERN----if you were to trade the 60min charts only,you will come face to face with this one.......For a Flow Trader who needs Pivots to Reverse,this Pattern is a killer.Imagine a superb downtrend,we are in short and then comes a crash in NIFTY(like Jan2008).Imagine you are hard core on the 60min Flow without the 30min modification.......you get a vertical fall and you get a vertical rise,forget the fact that you have given back all your gains,worse,the pivots don't just come and when in frustration you turn to longs,the market dumps!!It is the 30min tweak that made that day one of the best days in trading this year and it's a great weapon to have in your armoury.We already have the 2 bar reversal method for vertical moves..........but nothing beats the conviction that a pivot can give us,therefore the need to drop a time frame.....NIFTY especially can move in big moves when trending and the 60min will hardly give you a pivot,and that can be painful..........not asking you to change the way you do things,but asking you to examine the use of a slightly lower time frame,....not always,but at certain key moments.

Ideal scenarios do work in ideal conditions........but the market tends to throw up more than ideal conditions and one has to deal with it.Therefore these various modifications to a method,like the 30min modification to the 60min Flow.........it is to be used only in a scenario of gaps,or vertical moves,or sideways moves when you need more clarity,and not to be used on a minute to minute basis.

Are you wrong in holding the 60min Flow short overnight......not at all.....are you deviating away from the basic content of this thread.....not at all.What you are doing is very much part of this thread.

What I consider as deviation is when one group tries to prove the other wrong and adamant to get their ways.......Both groups within this thread have to understand that they are both correct.And be happy about it. ....But the general method of this thread will continue as a 60min Flow with a 30min adjustment.Because that's what I am doing.......

Importantly,if you are trading only the 60min Flow ,stick to that.....Yes,you had no reason then to get long,and you would have reversed and gone long today......great.What you have to figure out over time is how you are going to manage that vertical fall and rise maximising gains and reverting in time,without dropping a time frame...........Homework for the weekend.

As always,great stuff from you,my friend........well done!

Saint

 

[Saint]

Hello rkkarnani Sir

Thanks for the detailed analysis and pros n cons for both money management methods...

But whats the conclusion which is better A or B?

As far as I know you have been following B, but are keen to use A ...


Saint sir is following the A method, Komal says A is much better

Rakesh is not sure about how to use A...

I have backtested both A and B, both are n times better than what I used to do

Thanks

Ah,NC.......you haven't figured out Rakesh yet.......he has a keen eye and a great mind,another individual who can shut his mind and follow his method to the hilt......If there is another person who does A ruthlessly,that would be Rakesh.

And no,the Trader B will crash and burn one day......and would never be heard of or seen again.

Saint