Going With The 60min Flow!!!

[inspire]

Oh!!! I have missed to note your that I have asked one more question earlier with the SAR.
That is "What is 2 bar rule?"

Could you people guide on that too or a link to that details?

Dear Hari -

As mentioned right in the beginning of this thread by Saint
When charts get vertical,steep-ish gradient,put stops at previous 2 bar low,exit long and go short if triggerred (or vice versa)..........No steep gradient,no using this method,then it's pivots all the way.

Was going thru the posts right from beginning over past few days. This post from Saint will throw some light on the 2 bar employed (Sesa Goa Example)
http://www.traderji.com/equities/21903-going-60min-flow-71.html#post194327

Also, another post from Saint wherin he has explained regarding the above chart will help
http://www.traderji.com/equities/21903-going-60min-flow-75.html#post194977

2 bar method not be used in case of NF. Vertical moves, Steep Gradient, Huge Gaps in NF a lot has been discussed about referring to 30mins et al. Essentially pivots are our strength when dealing with the NF Beast You may need to refer to the discussions around 16-20 Sep.

Hope this helps.
Inspire.

 

[vpsarathy]

Dear Hari -

As mentioned right in the beginning of this thread by Saint
When charts get vertical,steep-ish gradient,put stops at previous 2 bar low,exit long and go short if triggerred (or vice versa)..........No steep gradient,no using this method,then it's pivots all the way.

Was going thru the posts right from beginning over past few days. This post from Saint will throw some light on the 2 bar employed (Sesa Goa Example)
http://www.traderji.com/equities/21903-going-60min-flow-71.html#post194327

Also, another post from Saint wherin he has explained regarding the above chart will help
http://www.traderji.com/equities/21903-going-60min-flow-75.html#post194977

2 bar method not be used in case of NF. Vertical moves, Steep Gradient, Huge Gaps in NF a lot has been discussed about referring to 30mins et al. Essentially pivots are our strength when dealing with the NF Beast You may need to refer to the discussions around 16-20 Sep.

Hope this helps.
Inspire.

If you are trading short and when successive 4 bars with new lows are formed; after the formation of the 4 th bar you may shift SL to the high of the 2nd bar (2 bars to left) + filter. Similarly if the 5th bar also has a new low then SL=high of 3rd bar+filter. This is my understanding. If 5th bar is a pivot then Pivot overrides everything ang SL shifts to PH+filter. Vice versa for long trade. I hope I am right. Seniors may confirm this please
vps

 

[rakeshluthra430]

Hi Rakesh, Very difficult to accept or understand "essence" of the word 'pivot'....Frankly there has to be something which is more obvious rather than accepting it on the basis of the 'essence'!!!
Going through the thread I find a few accepting the 3 PM high as a PH, but I tend to go with VPS!!! I have the same doubts as he has and I believe a few others have!!! Frankly have not been able to find a solution to it!!
Yes in 30 minutes, the 3 PM high may be termed a PH, but going by the definition, it is not!!!(yes by essence it looks like one).
But yes! no doubt, the three bars out of four having more or less the same high level , formed between 1.30 and 3.00 PM in 30 minutes chart indicate a resistance zone!!!! But as Saint says going by the eye, one has to take a relook at the chart , to reconsider whether it is a pivot, it cannot out right be rejected as a PH!!!
Rakesh, why should a Pivot formed at 1 PM affect the decision whether or not a PH has been formed at 3 PM!!! Either the 3 PM bar is a PH or not a PH, what does the 1 PM bar got to do with it. Your writing this only conveys that you yourself are not very sure of the 3 PM PH!!!
Feel creates more of a confusion than removing the existing ones!!!! Have interacted with a number of traders here on similar issues but have not got any clear cut views!!! All answers are vague!!! But am happy to state that have made good money by this system too!!!
All the best!!
-Shravan

Shravan/VPS,
I guess I have not been able to convince you about pivots, and why or why not do we consider the 3pm bar as one. First thing I am going to do is to delete my post...else some others will get confused.
Rakesh

 

[vpsarathy]

Rakesh,

Thanks for your attempt to find another method I sincerely hope it clears our minds. I am glad you understood our problem
vps

 

[Smart_trade]

Rakesh,

Thanks for your attempt to find another method I sincerely hope it clears our minds. I am glad you understood our problem
vps

To me both 1=00 and 3=00 bars are pivots.We have to take help of 30 to appreciate them more clearly.

Hope I am not adding to this controversy further but shared my reading !!!If proved wrong,will be too happy to delete this post and too glad to clear my concepts.

Smart_trade

 

[yashodhan]

In case of Aban, Can we employ 2 bar method here and take 2175 as SAR ( 1600 bar on Friday) if the first bar on MOnday is down? Am not very confident abt 2 bar methos, hence the querry!

 

[rakeshluthra430]

ZRakesh,

Your reply is not convincing. Whatever distance you employ the bar looks like a pivot to me even from a mile. The low of this bar is above the lows of bars on both sides. Not so in the case of 1pm bar. I donot understand why you seniors always push people to teach a man..., for everything; seems an escapist route. Only because some one has a doubt after reading it he is not committing a sin. I am also looking for a more plausible explanation. Lets us see who can help.

This post is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings, please.
vps

VPS,
Please dont mind it....but after seeing the highlighted portion of your mail...I still feel you should re-read the 'teach a man' thread. I myslelf have read it 5-6 times and still strive to read it at least once every 3 months.

None of the so called 'seniors' are escapists....but maybe some times a person can take for granted that what he understands, would be equally be understood by others....

Now coming to your question--pivots.. I will first quote Saint on the subject:
"So what then is a Pivot? Okay, we are back to the "Hand" example. Whisk out your right hand again, once again with your right palm
facing you. We have our little finger. The ring finger makes a higher high and low as compared to the little finger. The middle finger is
higher high and low as compared to the ring finger. We therefore have a RALLY. The index finger makes lower highs and lows as
compared to the middle finger. The thumb makes lower highs and lows as compared to the index finger. We therefore have a
DECLINE. The middle finger with two lower highs on both sides (ring and index now forms a PIVOT."

A price bar surrounded by bars having lower highs than it..has its high termed as a pivot high...A price bar surrounded by bars having higher lows than it..has its low termed as a pivot low...(you know it..dont know why I am repeating it.)....and in an uptrend...we concentrate only on higher pivot lows and in a downtrend...we concentrate only on lower pivot highs.

Now this Friday's 1pm and 3pm bars...both have highs higher than their surrounding bar's highs....so technically both are 'Pivot Highs'.So...are we being 'subjective' here? are we trying to completely ignore the 3 pm bars existance? No...

I personally dont go with the pivots that dont stand out from far....and frankly...the 3pm one didnt (to me atleast). So I will use it only if this comes down to the 30 min charts..not otherwise. How I think about this is....when we have such a clear cut pivot around....why go for the 'minor' one.

Are you wrong in considering this bar as a PH??? Certainly not. But then have you backtested this system for some period and dealt with such situations before? If yes...and if your response has consistantly be to consider these pivots....there is no reason why you should NOT consider the 3pm one as a pivot.

Now...one thing more. Every individual has a certain way of interpreting/ understanding things, and how to respond to different problems. I think mine is a bit more 'fluid' way..in the sense, I am more of a person who tends to see everything as unique...so maybe my response to the same pivots are not the same in different situations, but I guess others are not like that. The earlier response was a bit reflection of it, I realise my mistake now...and will refrain from posting anything like that in the future.

Hope I am clear now...in case you still have a doubt, let me know. I can make another attempt.

Thanks,
Rakesh
ps: If anyone..it was me whose feelings would have got hurt reading your post. Thankfully Im not hurt...as I know I have not been able to clear your doubts. Please pardon me, considering me a dumb person.

 

[Smart_trade]

In case of Aban, Can we employ 2 bar method here and take 2175 as SAR ( 1600 bar on Friday) if the first bar on MOnday is down? Am not very confident abt 2 bar methos, hence the querry!

Fit case for use of 2 bars method on Monday !!!

Smart_trade

 

[AMITBE]

The way I see it:

That 3 PM bar is a certain pivot.

It's emphatic and unmitigated on 30 min...enough to be a true pivot even in 60 min.
One reason why visually the 1 PM may appear clearer of the two, at least on my charting, is the presence of that small range bar that precedes the 1 PM bar, and that small bar happens to have formed partially during the sun outage time. So, in relation to the bars on either side of it, the 1 PM bar appears like a sharp spike.

In contarsat, the 3 PM bar on 60 min is rather softened by the nature of the bars on either side of it.

But now, using Saint's parlance, let's bring in some micro management, as, this would be an appropriate juncture to do just that:

Shifting to 30 min is , as far as I am concerned, kind of like micro managing a 60 min flow.
It's seen very vividly now that the 3 PM bar gets formed nice and sharp, but in addition, unlike in the case of the 1 PM bar, there is a very marked slide in price. This slide appears as three unrelenting down bars, each of wide enough range. The same on 60 min appear as two longish down bars, and the first of these two is a genuine WRB.

So clearly the 3 PM bar is the cliff, or rather the point, off which price has fallen off sharply. And that is the true spirit of a pivot.

I had written here a while ago that a pivot can also be seen as a function of buy/sell exhaustion.
Now micro managing this case further, even if it may seem to be beyond the scope of the 60 min flow, change the chart to 5 min period and the price slide is seen escorted by increased volume all the way down.

Again, yes, this 60 min flow is all about what is clear to the eye.
But that in itself does not assume that we must not open out the mind to accomodate certain other tools of study, only and specially when the situations demands that we do just that.

It's great though, to see all the debate that this has generated, and aptly so.

Amit.

 

[rakeshluthra430]

Hi Rakesh, Very difficult to accept or understand "essence" of the word 'pivot'....Frankly there has to be something which is more obvious rather than accepting it on the basis of the 'essence'!!!
Going through the thread I find a few accepting the 3 PM high as a PH, but I tend to go with VPS!!! I have the same doubts as he has and I believe a few others have!!! Frankly have not been able to find a solution to it!!
Yes in 30 minutes, the 3 PM high may be termed a PH, but going by the definition, it is not!!!(yes by essence it looks like one).
But yes! no doubt, the three bars out of four having more or less the same high level , formed between 1.30 and 3.00 PM in 30 minutes chart indicate a resistance zone!!!! But as Saint says going by the eye, one has to take a relook at the chart , to reconsider whether it is a pivot, it cannot out right be rejected as a PH!!!
Rakesh, why should a Pivot formed at 1 PM affect the decision whether or not a PH has been formed at 3 PM!!! Either the 3 PM bar is a PH or not a PH, what does the 1 PM bar got to do with it. Your writing this only conveys that you yourself are not very sure of the 3 PM PH!!!
Feel creates more of a confusion than removing the existing ones!!!! Have interacted with a number of traders here on similar issues but have not got any clear cut views!!! All answers are vague!!! But am happy to state that have made good money by this system too!!!
All the best!!
-Shravan

Oh...sorry Shravan. I think I conveyed how I think about things as the 'only' solution to the problem...which obviously is not the case.

I also realise that 'essence' thing is only relevant in my scheme of things...guess I am still living in my own 'fools paradise'....not having any specific answers to pointed questions. Promise..I will henceforth refrain from posting such stuff on this thread.

Now coming to your question.....why 1 pm and why not 3 pm? My answer---3pm not clear to me as a pivot.It doesnt stand out for me. Moreover, I am willing to lose 18 points (4083-4065) for the markets to convince me that they have changed their direction. However...have i rejected 3pm bar completely?? Not at all... if things do come down to 30 mins....I'll be among the first ones to use it..

Since you have been using this system for long...you would have noted that there is always a debate on these things...'minor' ..'major' 'mini'..'micromini' pivot etc. More recently..'aggressive' and 'pure' traders. What does all these mean??

Everthing boils down to only one thing....there are a few small 'deviations' which a person can employ in this system. So some consider a 'minor' pivot..others dont. Some look at 30 min charts..others dont. Some dont recognise a pivot at all if they see a clearer pivot around....others dont. And none of the 'group' above is wrong....they are all correct as long as they are consistent.

No one is wrong in using the 3pm bar also..if they find it clearer on their charts. Absolutely no harm at all..

So please go ahead and use the 3pm as a pivot....since you have been trading this system profitably for some time..I guess I dont have to tell you to be consistent...blah blah blah.

A few more things you said in your post. (a)You said I am not very sure about the 3pm bar. No....maybe I am not able to convincingly explain why I didnt consider the 3 pm bar. I may be wrong in not using it...but I am not unsure. (b) you said you interacted with a number of traders here but didnt get 'clear cut' answers... Ask yourself why is that so. Maybe you will find that there are no clear cut answers...I guess you know what I am refering to.

Do let me know if you still have any confusion.

Thanks,
Rakesh