Hiiii Ankit sir...Was Excited on seeing this reply from you :clap:...I was Desperately lookin for a job that im interested in(trading) Now that im done with my Post Graduation..Even to learn without big money is more than enough..Was wondering if u can help me out sir...No PM's here..Made me ask u in the open..If u can send some kinda info or contacts to my email would be really really greatful...My Email kamalesh.papineni@g mail.c om
job as a trader
- Thread starter onlinetrader
- Start date
I,m interested too. Though I am trading for several years I have not kept systematic records to prove my competence. But I do have trading plans, for 2 of which I have kept systematic records for last 2-3 months, which, I suppose is not sufficient for proper assessment. However, I don't mind starting small. It appears that PM is now disallowed by administration. So please contact me at lalitkhanra @ indiatimes.com.
Thanks.
Laksh
Thanks.
Laksh
Last edited:
Guys..please dont call me sir.... I would see what can i do for you guys....
Let me frankly admit I havent talked to anyone over this yet...and it may take some time for positive results....Also, the results might differ from what we expect. Not to lower your enthu guys...but just being realstic...
One thing is for sure...Keep working hard towards your goal....you would acheive it some way or another...
I am shooting a mail to both of you. Stay in Touch & Hope for the best
Happy Trading
Ankit
Let me frankly admit I havent talked to anyone over this yet...and it may take some time for positive results....Also, the results might differ from what we expect. Not to lower your enthu guys...but just being realstic...
One thing is for sure...Keep working hard towards your goal....you would acheive it some way or another...
I am shooting a mail to both of you. Stay in Touch & Hope for the best
Happy Trading
Ankit
Prop Trading shops, generally looks for good track record of few months atleast (can be proven by trade log), demonstrated good risk mgmt, profitable trading strategy etc .
Otherwise, what seperates your claim of being profitable trader ? and why would somebody risk their money knowing very well that more then 90% traders are looser.
I am suprised that they are offering basic salary and also risking their money on newcomers. Can't imagin how they will be managing their returns.
I came across some Prop shops on the net. They generally ask for person to put a deposit, then train them for few weeks.. and then the person is placed on simulated trading platform. Until, person can show consistent performance on simulator for few weeks, they don't give real money to trade. Real trading starts with 1contract. If performance is consistent, then then they increase the contracts. They also have rules to reduce the contract size. Ofcourse, they also have rule to fire the trader.
IMO, if one is profitable trader and has good track record, then it is matter of running trading as business and I am sure there will be lot of people who can give their money for consistent return of 2 to 3% per month. Bottomline is, how confident are you about your trading ? And can you market your service of a trader ?
Happy Trading
Otherwise, what seperates your claim of being profitable trader ? and why would somebody risk their money knowing very well that more then 90% traders are looser.
I am suprised that they are offering basic salary and also risking their money on newcomers. Can't imagin how they will be managing their returns.
I came across some Prop shops on the net. They generally ask for person to put a deposit, then train them for few weeks.. and then the person is placed on simulated trading platform. Until, person can show consistent performance on simulator for few weeks, they don't give real money to trade. Real trading starts with 1contract. If performance is consistent, then then they increase the contracts. They also have rules to reduce the contract size. Ofcourse, they also have rule to fire the trader.
IMO, if one is profitable trader and has good track record, then it is matter of running trading as business and I am sure there will be lot of people who can give their money for consistent return of 2 to 3% per month. Bottomline is, how confident are you about your trading ? And can you market your service of a trader ?
Happy Trading
Wise words...as always from you AW10...
Prop shops generally hire freshers after a rigrous round of selection process. Each firm has its own parameters set to recruit the best according to them. I remember once I sat for such a test,which was of fast math calculations and the passing grade was 80%..
You are right, no company allows a fresher trader to trade with LIVE money immediately on joining. 3-6 months is normal for paper/simulated training before they go trading LIVE. Also, the Lot size initial is small...only with a sustained performance, the lot sizes are increased. but yes, the do pay a minm basic salary for this period.It may be peanuts, but they do pay.
Ankit
Prop shops generally hire freshers after a rigrous round of selection process. Each firm has its own parameters set to recruit the best according to them. I remember once I sat for such a test,which was of fast math calculations and the passing grade was 80%..
You are right, no company allows a fresher trader to trade with LIVE money immediately on joining. 3-6 months is normal for paper/simulated training before they go trading LIVE. Also, the Lot size initial is small...only with a sustained performance, the lot sizes are increased. but yes, the do pay a minm basic salary for this period.It may be peanuts, but they do pay.
Ankit
Trading for a Firm
Types of Position a recruiting firm would look for:
Market-making
A market-maker is one who provides liquidity to the market place. Generally a market maker working for a firm, has a commitment ( in the case of UK listed equities) to maintain a two way price in SEAQ and SETS MM stocks during market hours, in return for special dispensations. Market makers will make a 2 way price to clients and run the risk of the trade themselves.
Proprietary trading
Proprietary or Prop traders are those who actually take positions using their firm's capital with the intention of pursuing speculative profits. (This is actually something different concept when it comes to Individual small scale firms.)
Sales trading
Sales traders are the link between centralised dealing desks ( institutional clients) and market makers. Their responsibility is to assist the institutional client base in executing orders efficiently by providing market intelligence and serving as an intermediary in negotiations about capital commitment with the market making desk.
Buy-side tradingA buy-side trader is one who makes purchases or sales transactions on behalf of a fund or portfolio, as in the case of a fund management company. The buy-side trader receives orders from the portfolio manager and then uses his or her discretion to seek best execution through brokers or electronic trading systems. The buy-side trader is also tasked with being the "eyes and ears" of the fund management company in the market and providing advice to portfolio managers about market activity.
Floor trader
A floor trader is one who is actually physically located at an exchange. He/she executes transactions with other floor traders face-to-face. Brokerages, hedge funds, and other types of companies employ floor traders. A floor trader may also independently hold an exchange seat that permits him/her to transact with incoming order flow and other floor traders. Independent floor traders are also known as 'locals.'
Where One Can Trade Professionally?
There are a number of institutions which employee, traders:
Investment banks
Investment banks are institutions involved in issuing and researching securities on behalf of their customers. They employ traders to provide liquidity for those issues. They also provide brokerage and execution services to the buy-side and engage in proprietary trading.
Commercial banksCommerical banks employ traders mostly to provide transaction support to their customers. This can include:
Buying/selling stock for retirement account
Making currency transactions
Purchasing government securities
Brokerages
Traders at brokerages are primarily order handlers. They receive orders from the firm's customers and make purchases and sales to those orders.
Hedge funds
A trader at a hedge fund is operating in a speculative environment. He/she may or may not have decision-making authority.
Fund management companies
Traders at fund management companies are primarily in the business of executing the transactions required of them by the fund managers.
Requirements for Entry levels or Non experienced in similar roles in Firm
Education is often the first requirement to gain employment with a firm. Nearly all mandate at least an undergraduate degree. Due to highly competitive demands of the limited positions, potential employers generally look for fresh graduates (generally under 23year old as far as I have seen) in Economics/mathematics/finance/quantitative any/ physics etc with atleast 80%+ overall from a top tier universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Warwick, London School of economics etc. Not really sure about Indian Uni's, but what I have written above is based on U.K/U.S based employers basic requirements, but all I can Imagine is Top 10 Unis in India as mostly the hedge funds/Investment Banks like DspMerrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs etc based in Mumbai are International firms IMO.
High Proficiency in C/C++, VBA would also be a good advantage as most of the firms are taking a Algorithmic Trading approch otherwise they have their own I.T Team.
There will also be a tough interview , written and other sorts of filtering.
Salary/Bonus:
In general most of the hedge funds and investmnt bnks payout salary from the begining, expect around 100k+, Graduates have to go through series of training mainly they are exposed to their own high end simulators like TT. After succesful training lasting around 6months-1year they then trade with real money or whatever their role is. When they start generating money for the firm, a good firm could may pay anything from 100k-5million+ but again dont count on every one actually very few i think.
Small Firms taking proprietry approach.
There are also small scale firms generally any one with good starting capital and predefined Business model meeting all the required criteria can open a prop desk again sorry dont know about firms particularly in India, but have a fair idea about London based prop firms do generally prefer recruiting some one with a successful track record of their own trading account. A track record could be anything showing a consistent growth of equity curve in your own account normally 8-12 months of consistency i.e if you have or are already making consistent profits every day, every week or every month for the last 1 years can stand a position to qualify with these firm. Although there are other parameters for judging a candidate but everything comes after if you are a consistent trader.
Salary/Bonus
There is generally no salary as such in general like hedgefunds or IB's but candidates here are better off taking bonus as here sky is the limit, some are really taking 300k+ a week etc the reson is these guys are so skilled and have learned via retail trading and have given enough blood during their experience and unfortunately they are only 5% of the total so called traders population. Please keep in mind that although you are working for a firm but you would be classed as self employed sole traders and it also means that as long as you are making money for the firm they will be happy to pay a chunk of profit i.e bonus normally 50% or so, depends. As soon as you start loosing money consistenly, i mean if you are not even making money to cover your desk fee( which constitutes of Bloomberg/Reuters News Terminal, CQG etc datafeed, commissions and other associated costs for using their software) then you are fired straight away.
What is a Trading Arcade?
The most common model for a trading arcade is a trading room where a trader can lease a seat, trade for his own account at reduced commissions, and often split the profits with the house in return for additional funding.
A "seat charge", which can range from 1,000 to 5,000 per month, includes some combination of market data, analytic package, connectivity and order routing technology. The most common offering is a high performance order entry system with sophisticated trading tools, market data and news services.
Arcades often will offer an individual trader some degree of leverage based on how much he deposits of his own money and how much profit he is willing to give up. Typical new traders deposit 10,000 and get an additional 50,000 in margin in exchange for a 50/50 profit split for a two-year lock-in deal. More experienced traders may be able to negotiate up to 70% of profits with no funds on deposit.
My Conclusion:
-Trading for a firm is having its own advantage the main reason is capitalism, u gottu love capitalism.
-Other benefits are you will have your own desk will a Bloomberg/Reuters Terminal, CQG and other highend data feed, High end completely customizable trade execution Platform like TT , other basic tool and softwares (alogrithms)etc which all comes with a v.big price tag which a normal retail trader cannot afford.
-You will be working in a completely professional enivorment surrounded by fellow traders and which is one of the best part IMO.
-Ultra low commissions due to heavy volume with direct market access
-Additional leverage or clip size scalable according to individuals trading skills
-A well defined Business plan(including props strategy, MM etc) and strictly imposed with supervision so very less chances of emotional rollercoaster screwing your plan.
Although it is many peoples dream to works for a IB(investment bank) or large Hedge fund but what I have seen or read is these qualified traders normally realize that they are not as happy as private prop traders or arcade traders because end of the day they are working for someone it has its own drawbacks compared to some one self employed and making a fortune. Particularly in the current climate when job security is the main concern and many of the hedge funds are going bust as we all know. Working for a Private Prop/Arcade would be far far more better option as you will build all those necessary skills and stuff required for your survival with time. Just my 2 cents.
Note: The information may only apply to U.K/U.S based firms but my intention was only to give you all some idea about what trading for a firm is like because as per my sources sooner or later we will be seeing these concepts or Prop houses will be targeting India as a base.
Types of Position a recruiting firm would look for:
Market-making
A market-maker is one who provides liquidity to the market place. Generally a market maker working for a firm, has a commitment ( in the case of UK listed equities) to maintain a two way price in SEAQ and SETS MM stocks during market hours, in return for special dispensations. Market makers will make a 2 way price to clients and run the risk of the trade themselves.
Proprietary trading
Proprietary or Prop traders are those who actually take positions using their firm's capital with the intention of pursuing speculative profits. (This is actually something different concept when it comes to Individual small scale firms.)
Sales trading
Sales traders are the link between centralised dealing desks ( institutional clients) and market makers. Their responsibility is to assist the institutional client base in executing orders efficiently by providing market intelligence and serving as an intermediary in negotiations about capital commitment with the market making desk.
Buy-side tradingA buy-side trader is one who makes purchases or sales transactions on behalf of a fund or portfolio, as in the case of a fund management company. The buy-side trader receives orders from the portfolio manager and then uses his or her discretion to seek best execution through brokers or electronic trading systems. The buy-side trader is also tasked with being the "eyes and ears" of the fund management company in the market and providing advice to portfolio managers about market activity.
Floor trader
A floor trader is one who is actually physically located at an exchange. He/she executes transactions with other floor traders face-to-face. Brokerages, hedge funds, and other types of companies employ floor traders. A floor trader may also independently hold an exchange seat that permits him/her to transact with incoming order flow and other floor traders. Independent floor traders are also known as 'locals.'
Where One Can Trade Professionally?
There are a number of institutions which employee, traders:
Investment banks
Investment banks are institutions involved in issuing and researching securities on behalf of their customers. They employ traders to provide liquidity for those issues. They also provide brokerage and execution services to the buy-side and engage in proprietary trading.
Commercial banksCommerical banks employ traders mostly to provide transaction support to their customers. This can include:
Buying/selling stock for retirement account
Making currency transactions
Purchasing government securities
Brokerages
Traders at brokerages are primarily order handlers. They receive orders from the firm's customers and make purchases and sales to those orders.
Hedge funds
A trader at a hedge fund is operating in a speculative environment. He/she may or may not have decision-making authority.
Fund management companies
Traders at fund management companies are primarily in the business of executing the transactions required of them by the fund managers.
Requirements for Entry levels or Non experienced in similar roles in Firm
Education is often the first requirement to gain employment with a firm. Nearly all mandate at least an undergraduate degree. Due to highly competitive demands of the limited positions, potential employers generally look for fresh graduates (generally under 23year old as far as I have seen) in Economics/mathematics/finance/quantitative any/ physics etc with atleast 80%+ overall from a top tier universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Warwick, London School of economics etc. Not really sure about Indian Uni's, but what I have written above is based on U.K/U.S based employers basic requirements, but all I can Imagine is Top 10 Unis in India as mostly the hedge funds/Investment Banks like DspMerrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs etc based in Mumbai are International firms IMO.
High Proficiency in C/C++, VBA would also be a good advantage as most of the firms are taking a Algorithmic Trading approch otherwise they have their own I.T Team.
There will also be a tough interview , written and other sorts of filtering.
Salary/Bonus:
In general most of the hedge funds and investmnt bnks payout salary from the begining, expect around 100k+, Graduates have to go through series of training mainly they are exposed to their own high end simulators like TT. After succesful training lasting around 6months-1year they then trade with real money or whatever their role is. When they start generating money for the firm, a good firm could may pay anything from 100k-5million+
but again dont count on every one actually very few i think.Small Firms taking proprietry approach.
There are also small scale firms generally any one with good starting capital and predefined Business model meeting all the required criteria can open a prop desk again sorry dont know about firms particularly in India, but have a fair idea about London based prop firms do generally prefer recruiting some one with a successful track record of their own trading account. A track record could be anything showing a consistent growth of equity curve in your own account normally 8-12 months of consistency i.e if you have or are already making consistent profits every day, every week or every month for the last 1 years can stand a position to qualify with these firm. Although there are other parameters for judging a candidate but everything comes after if you are a consistent trader.
Salary/Bonus
There is generally no salary as such in general like hedgefunds or IB's but candidates here are better off taking bonus as here sky is the limit, some are really taking 300k+ a week etc the reson is these guys are so skilled and have learned via retail trading and have given enough blood during their experience and unfortunately they are only 5% of the total so called traders population. Please keep in mind that although you are working for a firm but you would be classed as self employed sole traders and it also means that as long as you are making money for the firm they will be happy to pay a chunk of profit i.e bonus normally 50% or so, depends. As soon as you start loosing money consistenly, i mean if you are not even making money to cover your desk fee( which constitutes of Bloomberg/Reuters News Terminal, CQG etc datafeed, commissions and other associated costs for using their software) then you are fired straight away.
What is a Trading Arcade?
The most common model for a trading arcade is a trading room where a trader can lease a seat, trade for his own account at reduced commissions, and often split the profits with the house in return for additional funding.
A "seat charge", which can range from 1,000 to 5,000 per month, includes some combination of market data, analytic package, connectivity and order routing technology. The most common offering is a high performance order entry system with sophisticated trading tools, market data and news services.
Arcades often will offer an individual trader some degree of leverage based on how much he deposits of his own money and how much profit he is willing to give up. Typical new traders deposit 10,000 and get an additional 50,000 in margin in exchange for a 50/50 profit split for a two-year lock-in deal. More experienced traders may be able to negotiate up to 70% of profits with no funds on deposit.
My Conclusion:
-Trading for a firm is having its own advantage the main reason is capitalism, u gottu love capitalism.
-Other benefits are you will have your own desk will a Bloomberg/Reuters Terminal, CQG and other highend data feed, High end completely customizable trade execution Platform like TT , other basic tool and softwares (alogrithms)etc which all comes with a v.big price tag which a normal retail trader cannot afford.
-You will be working in a completely professional enivorment surrounded by fellow traders and which is one of the best part IMO.
-Ultra low commissions due to heavy volume with direct market access
-Additional leverage or clip size scalable according to individuals trading skills
-A well defined Business plan(including props strategy, MM etc) and strictly imposed with supervision so very less chances of emotional rollercoaster screwing your plan.
Although it is many peoples dream to works for a IB(investment bank) or large Hedge fund but what I have seen or read is these qualified traders normally realize that they are not as happy as private prop traders or arcade traders because end of the day they are working for someone it has its own drawbacks compared to some one self employed and making a fortune. Particularly in the current climate when job security is the main concern and many of the hedge funds are going bust as we all know. Working for a Private Prop/Arcade would be far far more better option as you will build all those necessary skills and stuff required for your survival with time. Just my 2 cents.
Note: The information may only apply to U.K/U.S based firms but my intention was only to give you all some idea about what trading for a firm is like because as per my sources sooner or later we will be seeing these concepts or Prop houses will be targeting India as a base.
Last edited:
Guys..please dont call me sir.... I would see what can i do for you guys....
Let me frankly admit I havent talked to anyone over this yet...and it may take some time for positive results....Also, the results might differ from what we expect. Not to lower your enthu guys...but just being realstic...
One thing is for sure...Keep working hard towards your goal....you would acheive it some way or another...
I am shooting a mail to both of you. Stay in Touch & Hope for the best
Happy Trading
Ankit
Let me frankly admit I havent talked to anyone over this yet...and it may take some time for positive results....Also, the results might differ from what we expect. Not to lower your enthu guys...but just being realstic...
One thing is for sure...Keep working hard towards your goal....you would acheive it some way or another...
I am shooting a mail to both of you. Stay in Touch & Hope for the best
Happy Trading
Ankit
Check this out! This may help you in job hunting all around the world. Search for Trading desk positions and much more in your preffered location.
http://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk
http://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk
Thats thoughtful of you Paul...but sadly enough, this site doesnt work for Indians....i have been a registered memebr for over 6 months...but no use..in dis downturn,no company wud sponsor ur visa with u sitting here in india...may be in better times we can see better results from such places.
happy Trading
happy Trading
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