Come into the Trader's Den

Re: how i messed it up

thanks danpickup,
merry christmas and happy new year to you and other board members. may your dreams comes true in wonderful ways this year and always .
pal, i got more than i could have possibly ask.
thanks for aw10 for starting this thread and others(anuragmunjals and likes) for contributing with their valuable inputs.
i haven't read all the forum rules yet, if i faulted somewhere kindly ignore.
regards
 
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This is the right way to trade.
Ur decision to train matured one is Right.Back up arrangement is also fine.
................
btw........can u not train any of ur family member? or it may be difficult as emotion is involved in relation which may jeopardise!!
Regards
hello oilman,
i used to tell my younger brother to execute trade and it works perfectly for me.
i think we should consider the option of educating family member to trade. the only problem i faced with this is that after sometime instead of following my advice blindly, he started questioning them. then, i told him bluntly that you are not supposed to think, just do what i am saying.
it was profitable for me.
 
This is the right way to trade.
Ur decision to train matured one is Right.Back up arrangement is also fine.
................
btw........can u not train any of ur family member? or it may be difficult as emotion is involved in relation which may jeopardise!!
Regards
hello oilman,
i used to tell my younger brother to execute trade and it works perfectly for me.
i think we should consider the option of educating family member to trade. the only problem i faced with this is that after sometime instead of following my advice blindly, he started questioning them. then, i told him bluntly that you are not supposed to think, just do what i am saying.
it was profitable for me.
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
Dear Friends,

As we grow along our trading professions we need to change gears. I have been thinking over this for quite sometime now (even shared a few things with Dan) and have decided on the few things to shift my activity to a level higher.

In trading, as I see there are two functions, intellect and non-intellect. The intellect one does the research, analysis and gives the trading calls, while the non-intellect does the execution, operational part of trading. Generally a trader does both. Doing both together may effect the quality of outcome (in the earlier years this is one of the primary reasons for losses).

To take care of the non-intellect function, I have decided to hire a person whose only job will revolve around execution and related activity. He will also be responsible for all operational functions related to trading. This Assistant is more like an exclusive broker who takes calls and executes your order. The execution speed which is the key is very fast, also the operational functions viz net, power back up, software updates etc etc are taken care by the assistant.

This arrangement will also give me a lot of free time to persue my other interests.

Initially I thought that the profile of this assistant should be an youngster around 25 years or less, but later zeroed in on an elderly person. Time invested to train this person would be large but the longitivity of his continuance with me would be more as lesser opportunities are available after a certain age. Cost wise there is no difference.

The main aspect I thought here was long term association because the biggest risk involved is once I get use to this system of trading, and if this person quits then it may become difficult to get back to the current system, also to get a new person and train him would need time.

Request suggestions and feedback before I go ahead in this direction.

Regards,
Hi tnsn2345

Some thoughts from outside and my personal experience with that. It doe's not answer your query. It may even produces more question. Hiring a person, which execute my trades :

- As an investors, I do so.
- As a position trader, I can do so.
- As a day trader I do not do so.
- As a mix of all, I do so.

Investor :

Today he has 500'000 Euro to invest in gold, silver, platinum. He then makes his analyses of this markets and tells his guy to invest that and that amount in each market. Execution is demanded to an other person, as there is no hurry. This man even can be a fond manager of any kind of fonds.

Position trader :

Makes his analyses from the market or the options he want to use. He then decides, where to place his orders on which time frame and on which strike levels. This orders, he writes down and gives them to the guy in the office, which is paid to do that job, means calling the broker and tells him what to look for. No real hurry, as the orders are placed on longer time frames. This guy can be an administrator of any kind in the financial sector.

Day trader :

I do not know any successful day trader, which hired a person to execute his orders. I speak here about the typical day traders, which doe's short time trades and uses intuition when deciding to go in and out of the market. If we are in day trading business, we sit in front of the screen. We recognizes the pattern ( If now with TA or PA or TR ) and jump in the market. Through our trading platform, our orders are executed with a click. ( If a day trader not has such a plat form, he is not able to do quick decisions ). Any derivative we trade is so executed. For other orders, we have the line to the guy on the floor or direct to the broker. There is no time to give orders to a person, which then should give the orders to the broker or to who ever. Impossible in day trading.

As I say, just my personal experience. Other ones have other experiences. It finally all depends on how much money we have to look after and how well organized we are.

DanPickUp
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
Hi

Some of the newbies may want to start trading as a business in the new year. Linda Braschke is one of the best trading womans in the world. 1999 she published a business plan for newbies. Here her planning for success for 2010 ( Surprise, it is nearly the same like 1999 and that means, that this is a good plan she presents ! ) :

Planning for Success (reprint of 1999 article...not much changes!)

Your business plan is your personal blueprint for trading success. It includes not only your goals, but a detailed plan of how you plan to get there. This plan should go far beyond the details of your trading methodology. It should include structuring not only your trading environment, but your whole life. Your mind and psyche are your main trading assets. How do you plan to protect them throughout the year?

Your business plan should be structured to motivate you to make higher highs in your account equity. This sounds like a given, but you must truly fight to come back from each drawdown. You must have allowances in your plan not to give back more than a minimal percentage of profits. Your trading plan must include all the details such as which markets you will trade, which strategies you will follow, and what type of leverage you will use. Only by having a trading plan will you be able to avoid emotional trading decisions.

I am of the belief that it is never too late to start thinking about working on a business plan for the current year. It is also never too early to think about putting together a business plan for next year. This is because it will take you some time to think about the things that I am going to say, and work on your own program.

Trading is abstract and there are so many questions and decisions to be made that come up during the day. Your goal as a trader is to execute your plan and leave the thinking out of it. A daily plan helps to aid in providing ritual, organization and structure. But before you think about how to construct your daily game plan, you need to first put together a broader annual business plan. In setting up your larger business plan, you will be designing a trading program for yourself. Many of the questions our office receives pertain to what type of trading patterns to follow, what time frames to trade on, how to place orders, and which markets to trade. Your business plan should address these issues.

When you setup up your program, you should think of yourself as your own best client. Your account is a client. Your goal should ultimately be to design the type of program you could trade several accounts on, or, think if you wanted to add just one client. You would need a very specific type of program to present to that client, and then, assuming they would be monitoring your trading activity every day, you would be more conscientious about following your program. Leverage and money management issues would be addressed in this "program", as would markets traded, draw downs, types of trades made, etc. I will share with you some of the ways I design my program. Before I do, the business plan includes so much more. It must also include goals and motivational factors, as well as rules, guidelines, and plans to keep you away from trouble areas or spots that you are weakest in.

I find that as a trader caught up in the markets, it is hard to take time off. So it is easy for me to hit the burnout point. I have a tendency to put too many positions on. Taking positions into the last day of the quarter seems to be my Achilles heel and bite into my bottom line. So, I am making a very clear provision in my business plan for 2000 NOT to have big positions on going into the last day of the quarter. If you want to give yourself the liberty to take several weeks as you develop your plan to still break a few rules, think about it as you do it. Think which rules are really going to serve you best. This is why I said it might take some time to mull over a few things.

I will give you the essence of my program and then you will see how easy it is to design your goals around your plan. I divide my trading into separate programs. For example, one is day trades in the SPs. Another is 2-3 day swing trades. Next, I create goals for each program. For example, if the SPs are the only market you are trading, one goal could be to include a range of expected activity level in making SP scalps. This could comprise your core program or be designated as supplemental activity. By having a goal to make a certain amount of scalp trades a week, you will challenge yourself a bit.

Will you include position trades, index options or GLOBEX activity in your program? Analyze your past trading performance. Are you more profitable sticking to short term scalps or holding longer-term positions? I like to keep my SP scalping activity separate, so for longer-term positions, I use the Russell futures or SP options as a separate trading vehicle. For trades made in the domestic futures markets, I try to hold trades anywhere from 2 - 8 days. Occasionally I will day-trade the bonds, but I try to play for overnight follow-through in most markets.

So, I essentially have three separate programs: SP scalping, short term swing positions based off classic chart patterns and 2-period Rate of Change pattern recognition, and long-term positions which can also include stocks, options, mutual funds, etc. You need to think about your mix that will work for you and be CLEARLY organized as to how you are going to manage your money. Some people prefer to keep different accounts for different programs. Don't over extend yourself or add so many things that positions can't be properly managed.

There should also be leverage guidelines and money management rules for each type of trade. Most of the time I do not use my full line. I trade 1 contract per "x" number dollars in my account. Determine a unit size for yourself. As your account grows, you can add another contract. These things should all be spelled out in your business plan.

As for goals, you can structure those two ways. Some people set a dollar amount goal for their trading activity. I have actually avoided doing this in the past, instead choosing to focus on maintaining a certain amount of activity level. I figured if I just did the best job I could each day, the profits would take care of themselves. Sometimes setting a dollar amount can be discouraging during drawdown periods or encourage you to force trades when nothing is going on.

For some people, a better goal might be to do "x" number of trades on a regular basis, or try for "x" number of SP points per week. This helps to reach the larger goals. Recognize that gains are unevenly distributed. If you set a target for yourself to make 3 SP points per day for each contract you trade, then do you quit when you make these three points? It doesn't quite work that way. When you are hot, you are in synch and should keep trading. If your 3 points come easy to you, than why would you quit on the day? You could very easily have a scratch day the next day...or even a losing day.

But you must have SOME sort of guideline. This will serve as your motivation to make a trade in the first place! You must have some reason to pull the trigger because for some folks, it is too easy to hold back on being aggressive. Set a goal that you can not only reach, but that you can exceed. So again, if you are a newer trader starting out with a small account, perhaps your goal will be to take 8 SP points out per week. How are you going to achieve that? If you have a smaller amount of capital you do not want to trade on a longer time frame. You need to find 1-2 spots a day where you can go in and try for a few points.

Now you are breaking your goal down into bite size pieces. How much can you risk on each trade? When I make "short skirt" type trades, I automatically risk no more than three points. If you decide that you can't risk more than 2 points, you are going to have to be very careful on picking your spot. You must be able to see your risk point before you go in. See the market turn and then enter "at the market" or as close to that turn as you can. So, that might be a "program" that you can start out with. Now, what might happen if you start out with your scalping program, is that for a few days, the markets might be dull, choppy, Perhaps you feel like you are behind your goal a bit. But then one day, your 2 point trade turns into a 5 point one...or, you get motivated and make a few more trades and exceed your goal. OK?

Don't put pressure on yourself to make x-amount every day, but you must have a guideline for what you would like to achieve on a monthly basis. Then at the end of the month, you ask yourself, how is your performance standing up to your business plan? If it is falling short, what needs to be adjusted? The biggest things that keep a trader from meeting their plan are: getting sloppy a few times, forgetting to place a stop, or getting stubborn on one trade. These are the things I see. One mistake waiting to bite you in the rear.

But guess what...it is possible to make all these mistakes and yet STILL make money. Astonishingly, the markets can be more forgiving than we think. It just takes a bit of persistence. So, each month, set your goal to do a better job than the month before. All you have to do is work on making fewer mistakes.

OK!...on to some more parts of the plan - record keeping and structure. THIS IS AN EQUALLY IMPORTANT PART to your business plan. Here is why. Routines and rituals keep things automatic. Additionally, they help set up the daily Game Plan (which we will get to next). A trader needs to get to the point where picking up the phone is just one more thing he does during the day. At the end of the day, I log all my daily numbers. This might seem a useless endeavor since this data is already listed on my computer and I am merely writing it down on paper. But this ritual brings a certain amount of relief to me because I can shut down making all decisions and do some therapeutic grunt work. I thrive on menial tasks and grunt work because I do not have to think during this time. It is a ritual that wipes my mind clean of all the good and bad that happened during the day.

I also have sheets where I log each trade, and lately I am becoming more diligent about doing my P&L at the end of each day. I used to do this during the eighties but stopped the last few years. Part of my business plan for this year includes becoming even more involved in record keeping. I am monitoring the amount of slippage on each trade and the average holding time for each type of trade. You see, you must make it into as much of a detailed game as possible to draw yourself into the game, increase the intensity.

The object is not to burn yourself out either - wrong idea. You do not have to focus on every tick, but rather the opposite. Keep your monitoring of the markets a Zen type of thing, meaning stay loose and relaxed. Sometimes the best trades will happen out of the corner of your eye. For example, perhaps you have been watching a market for a few days. You have been doing your nightly homework watching a particular setup unfold. Then, when the market starts to act a certain way that confirms your analysis is correct, you should be all over it.

You can't force the trades, but when you are relaxed you will see them better. The best way to stay relaxed and loose is to be involved in some sort of ritual. Like the tennis player who bounces the ball up and down a few times before he serves, does a dance with his feet and wipes his brow - these are all rituals to keep his serve loose. The same tricks apply with trading. You can doodle and make swing charts on paper during the day, write down periodic readings of the ticks, or note extreme price levels.

I hope you are getting the basic idea so far, because I do not want to elaborate to the point of overkill. But here is one more example. The person I worked for when I first traded on the Philadelphia Exchange had been a physicist. He spent 1 1/2 hours at the exchange before the market opened and would be there for an hour and a half after the close. He was very methodical and organized, writing out tickets and orders in advance. He was quiet and unassuming, and as I found out later, he was also one of the most consistently profitable traders down there. The person who first backed me when I traded in San Francisco taught me to chart the 3/10 oscillator every night using Security Market Research charting service. He also taught me to log the daily trin, tick, breadth figures, etc., in addition to writing out orders for the next day. Both these guys are still trading today.

These are some of the common traits I have noticed among those traders who succeed. They all have daily routines and rituals. You must balance out the abstract conceptualizing process the market requires with some tangible activities.

Your business plan should include making a daily Game Plan for each day's trading. What type of strategy are you going to use for the next day? Is the market due for a consolidation type day, one that starts to form a small trading range? Or is it poised for a breakout, a potential trend day? Is there an opening play for the morning? For example, if there is an early morning sell off, will it setup a buying opportunity? Or should rallies be shorted? Your game plan could include looking to sell a test of the previous high or buy a pullback to the hourly moving average.

At night, it is easy to note where the hourly grail patterns might be in other markets. Write down imaginary orders..."Buy Silver at such and such a price if it retraces to EMA". You will be more likely to make the trade if you follow this practice. Perhaps there is a particular market you have been following with a directional bias. Write down the previous day's high or low and use that as your pivot.

When managing longer-term trades, you will be more likely to stay with them if you write out clear instructions for trailing a stop. Write down your stop level and continue to move it as the market moves in your favor. My favorite way to trail a stop is to use a two-bar channel stop, or to use hourly support and resistance levels. In a downtrend, I will trail it just above the last hourly swing high, but in an uptrend, I will give it more room and trail it beneath the hourly low of two levels ago. Trail your stop not on the last swing low but the one before that one. This is because up-trending markets are more prone to A-B-C type corrections. There is not a perfect way to trail a stop - they all have their flaw. A 2- bar trailing stop works well, on paper, but personally, I hate the give back on any trailing stop and usually look to exit on some sort of buying or selling climax.

Sometimes, trading in another market can be a good diversion to keep you from taking profits too early on a position that is working. You have to let time work FOR you in winning positions.

Game plan - Business plan - overall trading environment structure...just start thinking about the way you really go about things. Get yourself down to a one day at a time type of process. Even if you are a position trader, your job is not to think about too far into the future, it is still to take one day at a time, even if it is just a monitoring process. The tape is always in the here and the now. Your goal should be to do the best job you can that DAY. Follow your rules and your game plan for that day. If the market moves in ways that were not in your game plan, that is OK. The wrong game plan is always better than no game plan at all. At least if your game plan is wrong, you will know it fairly quickly and that in and of itself has forecasting value.

It is OK to miss a million trades, but it is not OK to miss that one setup on your game plan you have been waiting for. You can also adjust your game plan midday. Perhaps you were looking to sell a rally back to the hourly moving average, but the market blasts on through. It is OK to say, "because the market failed at that benchmark, it might mean there is a stronger move in the opposite direction". Perhaps then it would signal to switch gears and start looking for the first 5-minute grail buy. You get the idea!


Checklist

Here is a list of some of the types of things you can include in your annual business plan. This will give you something to work on. Start thinking about putting together a professional program, comprised of bite size pieces.

1. What methodology or patterns are you going to trade? It is OK to have a "library" of setups, but most people do best concentrating on a niche or particular technique. Learn to do one thing consistently well instead of trying to master too many styles.

2. Which markets are you going to trade? If you trade equities, think about keeping a "stable" of stocks to follow. Don't get caught up in scanning a database of too many issues that you are not familiar with. It invites unfortunate situations where there may be pending issues or reports in the company that you are unaware of. If you have not had much success trading soybeans or silver in the past, why try to continue to trade them in the future?

3. How much capital are you going to put into your trading accounts? Something I have to add here, stay away from looking at percentage returns when evaluating performance statistics, such as percent return or drawdowns, on your personal account. Concentrate instead on dollar amounts. What is your dollar amount tolerance? My stomach turns at a specific dollar amount drawdown. Percentages vary too much according to how much money you keep in your account. You might have a net worth of 1 mil and keep 100,000 in your trading account and your situation will be entirely different than a person who has 5 mil and keeps 100,000 in trading account. The person with the higher net worth will feel freer to use a different type of leverage. So think in terms of dollar amounts...how much are you willing to draw down to?

4. How do you plan to enter, exit, and manage trades? I like dividing my contract size into two units. Usually I go all in and then scale out in halves. Some positions I keep half on as a core and use the other unit as a scalping unit. Whatever style you choose, it should be written down into your plan.

5. What is your plan to manage drawdowns? How will you evaluate when you need to take time off?

6. What are your monthly goals? Are you going to strive to make a certain number of trades each week or perhaps a certain number of SP points? Remember, these are guidelines by which to measure your progress. Some months will be better than other months. The end of the month is a good time to do a periodic review. Most businesses do this on a monthly or quarterly basis.

7. Include a daily routine in your overall business plan. How are you going to evaluate your performance each day? Keep a notebook of the things you do RIGHT. Pat yourself on the back for small moral victories, such as exiting a losing position in a quick fashion. Note the small incremental improvements you make.

8. Create an office environment designed to facilitate performance. Eliminate distractions and outside influences. Reduce glare and get a comfortable chair. Invest in good equipment. Invest in an excellent data feed.

9. Include a provision that will keep you from trading if outside circumstances create an unusual stress, such as health, divorce, or a major move. You might as well just write a check out of your trading account and kiss it goodbye. This is a hard thing to recognize before it is too late. People LOSE money during times of 10 major stresses: death, taxes, divorce, moving, health...you get the point. Trading is a performance-oriented discipline. If you can't perform well, cancel the show... If a tennis player severely sprains his ankle, he cancels the match. Why do damage to your ratings? Why mar your statistical record with sub-optimal performance?

10. Record Keeping - Rate yourself on your routine and structure and nightly homework. Do you do research or have way of logging results? What type of research is included in your program or plan? My problem is I stack too many projects up on back burner. I need to streamline this area for myself. Or, I get diverted doing research, go off on a tangent late at night and stay up way too late. Then I am not in optimal condition the next day. My business plan includes a bedtime. I promise myself to adhere to it.

11. Rewards! All work, no play makes Jack a dull boy. You must have outside interests or hobbies to get your mind off the markets at the end of the day. You must treat yourself to something you really want. If you spend money on yourself you will eliminate subconscious poverty thoughts. I am serious. Treat yourself like a million bucks and you will be worth it soon. Maybe after a good week you treat yourself to a massage, or buy something you really want. I already have something in mind that I will do for myself if I meet my goals next year. It is something that does not cost too much but that I could never justify spending money on because it might seem frivolous. But the money comes from my trading account so nothing is frivolous!

12. LASTLY, What plans do you have to continually improve yourself? See yourself as a top-notch person, health-wise, performance wise, and attitude wise. How do you keep advancing in life? You know the old saying, if you are not going forward, you are going backward. Educational pursuit such as books and study courses are important, but don't neglect spiritual pursuit, or outside projects...perhaps building your own website, starting your own trading network, writing your own book on all the trials and tribulations of the business, or working with a charity.
All the above subjects are more important to your long-term success in staying in this business than any trading indicators or setups! People do not lose money from entering on bad setups. They lose money from getting sloppy in their trading and sloppy in their habits and life. They allow emotional trades to creep into their program because they have not done their homework and are not prepared. Your business plan is a contract with yourself. It is a contract to treat yourself as your own best client. Surrounding yourself with guidelines, rules, and an overall structure can be the vehicle that brings you freedom from performance anxiety and gives you the confidence that you can take your trading to the next level.

I hope, some of you can use that and I wish you all a nice Christmas time.

DanPickUp
 

jagankris

Well-Known Member
Dear tnsn2345,

IMO for swing or positional trading the speed of execution and quick decision making is not required but analysis and a good strategy is a must.

I am a system's trader.I am strictly writing the below in the perspective of day trading.

Quick decision making is one of the key aspects to the success in day trading.

Most of the successful day traders hired by big firms are youngsters for they will have the speed and a clean mind.

One of the problems always I faced in day trading is the noise of the mind.

i.e Analytical mind or mind in general will tell one thing but markets will behave differently on a particular day and a particular time which the price and system alone will tell clearly.

Still I am missing the signals because of the noise of the mind due to my analytical mind,ego due to the analytical mind and false hopes.

IMO to become a successful day trader analytical mind has to be removed or in other words - where the analysis (Fundamental and technical) stops there the day trading begins.

Ie the technical analysis aspect should be handled by the system and not the mind.IMO this requires a extremely good system.

If the system is good and no of trades to be executed is expected to be less then the executioner old or young doesn't really matter else my vote is for a youngster.

But finding a trust worthy reliable person and the risk of exposing a good system cannot be avoided.

Seniors please correct me if am wrong any where.

TIA.

Best Regards,
JK
 

tnsn2345

Well-Known Member
Dear Oilman, Angel,

Like they say don't mix business with pleasure or don't get work at home and home to work. So no scope of mixing family with trading, both are mutually exclusive and former more more important than later.

Dear Dan, Jagan,

I see my trading style is quite different from most of the traders here as I have multiple TF trading portfolios. As I had mentioned earlier somewhere, this is the basis for me to manage risk by diversification / asset allocation. This has been working effectively for me but I doubt the efficiency. I feel there is scope of improvement in efficiency.

For me it is like a baker who manages multiple ovens baking cookies to cakes – all set at different tempratures, different timers and for different sizes.

Also what takes a toll is physical aspect of record keeping, journal writing, et al, for review and analysis. Add to this managing multiple trading accounts also puts pressure. All this disconnects me from the core area of research, building anxiety sometimes not only resulting in financial compromise but more importantly affects the mental tranquility – which I think I should not compromise on.

Having referred to my records, I felt that outcome could have been generally improved consistently if I focused only on the intellect function and outsource operational function. I can be more effective, if I get everything ready in terms of analysis reports of activity, statements, journals on my table instead of spending time on creating those and then analysing.

Hence this Assistant is not merely an executor of trades but also responsible for all related activity of trading other than decision making – which is left to me.

Regards,
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
Dear Oilman, Angel,

Like they say don't mix business with pleasure or don't get work at home and home to work. So no scope of mixing family with trading, both are mutually exclusive and former more more important than later.

Dear Dan, Jagan,

I see my trading style is quite different from most of the traders here as I have multiple TF trading portfolios. As I had mentioned earlier somewhere, this is the basis for me to manage risk by diversification / asset allocation. This has been working effectively for me but I doubt the efficiency. I feel there is scope of improvement in efficiency.

For me it is like a baker who manages multiple ovens baking cookies to cakes all set at different tempratures, different timers and for different sizes.

Also what takes a toll is physical aspect of record keeping, journal writing, et al, for review and analysis. Add to this managing multiple trading accounts also puts pressure. All this disconnects me from the core area of research, building anxiety sometimes not only resulting in financial compromise but more importantly affects the mental tranquility which I think I should not compromise on.

Having referred to my records, I felt that outcome could have been generally improved consistently if I focused only on the intellect function and outsource operational function. I can be more effective, if I get everything ready in terms of analysis reports of activity, statements, journals on my table instead of spending time on creating those and then analysing.

Hence this Assistant is not merely an executor of trades but also responsible for all related activity of trading other than decision making which is left to me.

Regards,
My friend, please come down !:)

My last post from LB included ideas about different accounts for trading.

What I posted about investors, was made in real yesterday in our company. We had to invest 372'000 Euro and in two weeks we do the same again as we do it all the time with just this fond.

It took us around 30 min to make all the decisions and then we gave the order to the fond administrator to execute the orders. We run other long term investment fond with the highest standard levels in shares and there is the same procedure every week.

I do not understand your excitement about this, as it is just a regular work in any company which looks after bigger amounts and has to invest money regularly.

I do not talk about day trading as your post not refers to day trading. I just talk about money, which is invested for a longer time.

DanPickUp
 

anuragmunjal

Well-Known Member
Dear Friends,

As we grow along our trading professions we need to change gears. I have been thinking over this for quite sometime now (even shared a few things with Dan) and have decided on the few things to shift my activity to a level higher.

In trading, as I see there are two functions, intellect and non-intellect. The intellect one does the research, analysis and gives the trading calls, while the non-intellect does the execution, operational part of trading. Generally a trader does both. Doing both together may effect the quality of outcome (in the earlier years this is one of the primary reasons for losses).

To take care of the non-intellect function, I have decided to hire a person whose only job will revolve around execution and related activity. He will also be responsible for all operational functions related to trading. This Assiatant is more like an exclusive broker who takes calls and executes your order. The execution speed which is the key is very fast, also the operational functions viz net, power back up, software updates etc etc are taken care by the assistant.

This arrangement will also give me a lot of free time to persue my other interests.

Initially I thought that the profile of this assistant should be an youngster around 25 years or less, but later zeroed in on an elderly person. Time invested to train this person would be large but the longitivity of his continuance with me would be more as lesser opportunities are available after a certain age. Cost wise there is no difference.

The main aspect I thought here was long term association because the biggest risk involved is once I get use to this system of trading, and if this person quits then it may become difficult to get back to the current system, also to get a new person and train him would need time.

Request suggestions and feedback before I go ahead in this direction.

Regards,



hi Tnsn

My trading results improved significantly once I started training and using dealers for my order execution after I left active scalping. I have experienced the more detached I am from the market and frm individual trades, the better my results are. but as u rightly said, it would become difficult to train another dealer or switch back to the original mode if ur dealer leaves u fr a better oppertunity or to trade fr his own. frm what I have seen, if ur trading system is such that, the trade is on for a short duration... the capital requirement is less... the speculative element is low, almost always ur dealer would leave u to trade fr his own, becos the day he would be confident that he understands the system and can explain it to a broker, he would find many brokers who would be ready to finance him for a share in the profits.
don't waste ur time n energy in such a scenario.
on the other hand, as u have mentioned that u trade multiple time frames, ur trading system is slightly complex ( may not be fr u , but fr someone watching frm outside)....the capital requirement is relatively large ...decent speculation is involved and the trades are on fr a relatively big time period or are continuous in nature, the chances of ur dealer leaving u are remote if he is being compensated adequately. go ahead with ur idea of training sumone...

regards
 

tnsn2345

Well-Known Member
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on the other hand, as u have mentioned that u trade multiple time frames, ur trading system is slightly complex ( may not be fr u , but fr someone watching frm outside)....the capital requirement is relatively large ...decent speculation is involved and the trades are on fr a relatively big time period or are continuous in nature, the chances of ur dealer leaving u are remote if he is being compensated adequately. go ahead with ur idea of training sumone...

regards
Dear Anurag,

Thanks for your feedback and reasoning.

We think quite similar I guess. As mentioned (by you and me) the biggest risk is losing this person will be due to he getting confidence that he can do it himself which is quite natural human tendency. Infact lot of people are lured to trading because it seems easy money for them. So even this person can develop this thinking.

Keeping this in mind, I decided that an elderly person, one who is not amibitious, has responsibilities for his family, a simpleton and discplined one can fit the bill. Someone who is typically a lower middle class types and someone for whom a fulltime job is a dream come true (incidently this is a 5 days week job, much like a govt job, and that too from 9 till 5 - 5.30, without any late sittings, ever). Hope you understood the personality of this person. Remuneration wise it would be a notch up above his capability and expecation.

Also as you rightly mentioned that since I have multiple TF holdings, 5 TF / 6 TF, on the face of all my holdings, no one can make out why it is held and for how long it would be held. Long, short, sometimes hedged, non hedged, leveraged (FO) and non-leveraged (Stocks) positions all are there at any point of time. Also correctly highlighted that these are continous in nature, something like rolling holdings. Still shorter TF holdings have lesser fund allocations than larger TF, so someone can make estimation of the pattern of trading strategies over a long period of observations. So he will know what trade I am in but not the strategies, the trade-secrets remains with me.

Thanks once again.

Regards,


My friend, please come down !:)
....
It took us around 30 min to make all the decisions and then we gave the order to the fond administrator to execute the orders. We run other long term investment fond with the highest standard levels in shares and there is the same procedure every week.

I do not understand your excitement about this, as it is just a regular work in any company which looks after bigger amounts and has to invest money regularly.

I do not talk about day trading as your post not refers to day trading. I just talk about money, which is invested for a longer time.

DanPickUp
Dear Dan,

Thanks for your post, we are not in the same boat as you have people to do it for you and I don't. :)

Refering to your statement highlighted in bold, for longer TF trades the decision taking time is very negligible to the execution time. I have seen Institutional dealers desk sometimes spend a week to accumulate a stock. When the amounts are large, you need to account the Impact Cost of acquisition. Not that my account is as large, but still to some extent I take time to enter (mid to long TF trades) over a considerable period of time at the price which I feel is 'right', hence multiple orders / undisclosed quantity orders need to be placed without impacting the order book of that stock. They are monitored, modified, cancelled, reentered, checked and so on. And the 'right' price is not static, if the Index suddently falls / rises, then the 'right' price also changes accordingly. And doing all this is just not fun, just not the core of me.

So more than the excitement, the object here is disintegration of a simple structure.

Regards,
 
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